Let's Talk Replay Value

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Sorry if I sound like a broken record here, but I'm going to go straight into describing NGB as to me its the game that contains the ultimate level of replay value of of any game that I have ever played, personally. Let me sum it up:

-The game starts out on Normal with a simple and welcoming control scheme and design but a fairly difficult learning curve with tough enemies and even tougher bosses. Your first time through the game on average should take about 20 hours (maybe 15 for some people or possibly even a little less, but the point is that no matter what its a longer than average action game by quite a bit, though it also doesn't have to be if you don't want it to be that long (I'll touch upon this in just a bit).

-After that, you unlock Hard mode which is a little tougher but just right in terms of upping the difficulty so as to now totally overwhelm you with a huge jump, and it can be overcome with more practice and skill, and after beating Hard mode you unlock Very Hard mode and after beating Very Hard mode you unlock Master Ninja mode (that makes a total of 4 difficulty settings NOT including Ninja Dog mode). Now going into the difficulty settings themselves makes for its own list in and of itself.

- On each difficulty setting you will encounter numerous noticeable changes (so the game doesn't basically cheap out and just make enemies attack more, have more health, and deal out more damage to you, in that they do these things but that's merely only the tip of the iceberg). In addition to this, other changes include: Enemies defend more and are generally smarter, you encounter tougher enemies early on in the game and enemy sets change in various places from how they were on previous difficulty settings plus you get all new enemy types that were never in the previous difficulties with each harder difficulty mode, you get 3-5 new boss fights (depending on the difficulty you're playing on) each with an individual Evil Clone Ryu (with each one wielding a different weapon, encountered in different locations, and requiring different strategies), bosses are now harder in general and have more moves and can also summon minions to fight along side them and increase the challenge, weapons are encountered in different locations and in some cases you can get certain weapons earlier than usual on the harder difficulties, items found in chests and on dead bodies and that you unlock as rewards for collecting Golden Scarabs completely change on EACH harder difficulty setting, and weapon upgrades and items cost more with each harder difficulty setting.

-After beating every single difficulty mode of the game, you can go back and attempt speed runs and clear a game that once took you 20 hours in under 4 hours to show how far your skill has come.

-Additionally, you can replay the game for higher Karma scoring (and back when the original XBOX had online capabilities with XBOX Live, you could upload your scores on the world-wide leaderboard), and scoring in this game is actually very seriously technical and competitive among fans of the game, with many bit tips and strategy videos and walkthroughs solely dedicated to the game's deep scoring mechanisms.

ALL of the above stuff only pertains to the game's story mode....oh yeah, that's right, after you beat the game once on Normal, you unlock an entire new mode called Mission Mode. In this mode, you have:

-50 playable challenge missions (though you only unlock 5 at a time) putting Ryu in various locations from the story mode but with far tougher enemy sets and generally being far more challenging but still completely fair.

-Each of the 50 missions contains 4 difficulty modes from Normal to Master Ninja, so you end up playing through each of them 4 times, and harder difficulties actually call for different strategies and advanced gameplay tactics (and once again, it never crosses the border of being cheap, so its all doable through insane amounts of skill through hundreds of hours of practice with the game).

-After beating the missions just for the sake of beating them, you can also come back to them for high score challenges and time trial runs to clear them as fast as you can.

I would also mention how you can unlock the original Ninja Gaiden arcade game by beating hard mode, but its not a very good beat-em-up game so I didn't bother mentioning that one, though the novelty of it is kind of nice. I would have preferred in this case if NGB would have kept the original NES games as unlockables like they had with the original version of Ninja Gaiden before Nintendo slapped a lawsuit on Tecmo's ass for doing that and forcing them to remove it from Black.

Anyways, believe me when I say that this is just a brief summary version of all of the replay value of this game, as I didn't actually go into describing the amount of depth of the level of changes and how the new modes work and such.

Just so that everyone has a record to gauge, I clocked in over 200 hours of play-time with this game, which is more than any other game that I have ever played in my life.

OH SNAP! WAIT A SECOND! WASN'T THIS THREAD SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT REPLAY VALUE!?!

Well, my friends, this is my point. Rather than starting the topic with a generic opening about how obviously important replay value is in any game, I gave you all what I personally feel is my own perfect example of replay value out of any game. I'm not claiming its the best, but its my favorite, and I feel that this describes what I look for in a game's replay value better than anything else that I know of.

So, go away and list what you love to see in replay value and give your own experiences with games and the replay value that they offered you (much like I did here for NGB).

However, the real reason for why I started this thread is to ask you all this: Can anyone name one game from this generation that's not a Nintendo exclusive that has even close to as much replay value as the game I just listed here? And I say this not to be snobby, but in all seriousness, as I really want to play a game this generation that can offer me even half as much as NGB did in the last generation.

Let me put things into perspective: Arkham Asylum and Alan Wake are by far 2 of the best games that I have played this generation (and from what I can tell, most people would put AA in their top 10 games of the generation)....and neither of them even come close to that level of replay value. So once again, in all honesty, I'm open to any suggestions of games with such huge amounts of replay depth (provided that its not a PS3 exclusive, since I only own an XBOX360).

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Oh, and just for fun, I'm curious Foggle (in all honesty): Since you have played all of the God of War games and like them a fair amount, I wanted to know how close you feel it comes to what I listed for NGB, in terms of replay value (how it handles its harder difficulties and extras and such). I ask this sincerely just to have an idea of whether its just me or NGB really is one of the most replayable games of all time.

[Spark Of Spirit]

There are several levels of replay value to me that I can think of.

Branching path/level design - Allowing me multiple ways to get through the stage on whatever terms I want. This already lends itself to multiple playthroughs. In RPGs, this can be randomized dungeons (Borderlands ONLY weakness, IMO) that give me the same freedom.

The action is engaging - If the combat system allows me to utilize the environment/ multiple weapons in order to choose my own way to fight, then I'll probably replay it a lot.

These two aspects are why I love platformers, beat em ups, and jRPGs the most of any genre. As most offer at least one of those two aspects in allowing me a level of control on how I want to play the game. This means every time I play the game I will have a different experience than the last, and is essential to replay value.

If the game does not have either of those aspects, then I might play it once, but it's simply not for me.

The games this gen that have had these aspects such as Mega Man 9, Contra 4, Sonic Colors, and Borderlands are probably the best games this gen to me simply because I can play them a ton without getting bored.

[gunswordfist]

I took Ninja Gaiden back because it didn't have New Game +.

The game I played with the most replay value this generation was Devil May Cry 4. I didn't get to finish whatever mode was the first hard mode due to little brother dropping a heavy fan on my 360 and scratching the game but I had a blast trying to beat Credo. What a great boss. I also do mandatory replays of Mass Effect 2 and now I am going to have to finish 1 again due to making sure I get all the choices I want, ugh.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I took Ninja Gaiden back because it didn't have New Game +.

The game I played with the most replay value this generation was Devil May Cry 4. I didn't get to finish whatever mode was the first hard mode due to little brother dropping a heavy fan on my 360 and scratching the game but I had a blast trying to beat Credo. What a great boss. I also do mandatory replays of Mass Effect 2 and now I am going to have to finish 1 again due to making sure I get all the choices I want, ugh.

New Game + is for pussies who don't want to actually get skilled at a game and want to start harder difficulties with all of their upgrades.

Its funny that you mentioned DMC4. I stopped playing it on DMD mode when I realized how lazy the game design was, as the difficulty was almost non-existent when I realized how easy the upgrades make the game. Nero's charge shot is so fucking over-powered its hilarious how easy it is to exploit enemies and bosses with that. Like I said, new game + is for pussies, but just for the record you obviously don't have you facts straight since NG2 DOES have a New Game + mode (except its done right since you can't use it for higher difficulties unless you beat those first, and even then I never play them because unlike you I'm not a pussy ).

[gunswordfist]

Predictable overreaction is predictable. I was referring to the first one on Xbox. I still have my copy of Sigma 2.

[Rynnec]

Its funny that you mentioned DMC4. I stopped playing it on DMD mode when I realized how lazy the game design was, as the difficulty was almost non-existent when I realized how easy the upgrades make the game. Nero's charge shot is so fucking over-powered its hilarious how easy it is to exploit enemies and bosses with that.

Really? That's dissapointing considering that DMC3 never had tha problem. Hell, the game was still giving me a challenge from the short time I was playing very hard difficulty, even though I had all the weapons at my disposal. I think that's what I want most from New Game+; still challenging even though you have all your weapons, items etc. with you.

To answer the question: Other than fighting games (which are meant to be replayed as much as possible) I can't think of any other non-nintendo game that has as much replay value. Then again, I still need to play a lot more games from this gen.

[gunswordfist]

Me too. I've played like 8 games from this gen.

[Foggle]

I enjoy playing games more than once... yes, on the same difficulty that I did the first time, and no, not because I care about achievements. If the level design, gameplay elements, story, or - in some instances - music is good enough, I can play the exact same thing over and over and never get bored.

I'd just like to take this moment to point out that I hate New Game+ and refuse to play on that kind of mode because I feel like it cheapens the gameplay experience. Or something like that.

Oh, and just for fun, I'm curious Foggle (in all honesty): Since you have played all of the God of War games and like them a fair amount, I wanted to know how close you feel it comes to what I listed for NGB, in terms of replay value (how it handles its harder difficulties and extras and such). I ask this sincerely just to have an idea of whether its just me or NGB really is one of the most replayable games of all time.

Honestly? I'm not good enough to play on anything harder than Normal, and I'm not enough of a pussy to play on Easy, so I can't really tell you how the games handle difficulty level shit. I will say that the only replayable console God of War game is the second one, which was actually really awesome overall, IMO. 1 is fairly boring all the way through (I barely managed to finish it once). 3 is too scripted and bogged down by filler sections to make it as replayable as the second one, but it's still far more enjoyable on subsequent run-throughs than the first. Chains of Olympus is pretty fun to play over and over, though that's because it's only about 6 hours long and there really aren't that many options if you're looking for a good 3D hack n slash game on the PSP.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The difficulty depends on the game. If "Hard" just consists of having you take less damage until death and increasing enemy HP to make them take longer to die, then I would actually rather play on "Easy".

Good difficulty levels include increases in obstacles and enemy varieties and patterns which basically make you WANT to replay different difficulty levels just to see how everything was changed around.

Sadly few developers even do this any more, usually just opting to gimp the player to add more challenge.

[Foggle]

Good difficulty levels include increases in obstacles and enemy varieties and patterns

Changes in enemy patterns? Like how all the enemies do in CoD on Veteran mode is spam grenades?

[Spark Of Spirit]

Good difficulty levels include increases in obstacles and enemy varieties and patterns

Changes in enemy patterns? Like how all the enemies do in CoD on Veteran mode is spam grenades?

They do that on easy. The grenades just don't kill you outright.

I say this as someone who played the games on Veteran and probably raged more than I ever have at a game. Nothing pisses me off more than a game that goes out of its way for punishing me for playing it right but just being unlucky.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Predictable overreaction is predictable. I was referring to the first one on Xbox. I still have my copy of Sigma 2.

So basically Ninja Gaiden without the Black. Either way, it still has more replay value than that DMC shit, especially the first DMC game. Kamiya could take some pointers on how to make a real action game from Itagaki.

I'd just like to take this moment to point out that I hate New Game+ and refuse to play on that kind of mode because I
feel like it cheapens the gameplay experience. Or something like that.

These are the words of a true man among men. Takes notes, GSF.

[gunswordfist]

Fuck you, New Game + rocks. I don't want to have to spend another forever getting my stuff back and why wouldn't I not want to fight enemies with the best weapons on the earlier stages without having to wait later to get the shit?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Fuck you, New Game + rocks. I don't want to have to spend another forever getting my stuff back and why wouldn't I not want to fight enemies with the best weapons on the earlier stages without having to wait later to get the shit?

Because you're a pussy. Real men don't need sissy upgrades to fight earlier enemies. Of course, I almost forgot that I wasn't even talking to a man, so it makes sense that you don't like doing things the hardcore way, mam.