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[The Shadow Gentleman]

So some more info about the next season was released, and a character by the name of Varrick is being voiced by Mentok the Mindtaker

For some reason I felt the need to share that.

[The Shadow Gentleman]

So in the vlog for Crossroads of Destiny, Rob Walker said that he thinks Zuko was trying to convince himself he wants to be a villager and deep down never really wanted that kind of life and when Azula tempts him, it was kind of similar to an alcoholic going back to an addiction. Thoughts? 

[Spark Of Spirit]

I just don't buy it. The problem was that he expressed no doubts about his situation whatsoever since he arrived in Ba Sing Se and after Zuko Alone he came to terms with the fact that what he was doing was wrong. There was no foreshadowing, character clues, or plot advances that gave any indication that Zuko was still unsure of his direction. Look, I get that sometimes people make the wrong decisions but they don't do it 180 degrees on top of betraying someone close to them at the possible expense of said person's life out of the blue.

The impression that I get is they just wanted to 'shock' fans and pull the story in the way they wanted to instead of the way it should have naturally gone.

Also, it's clear he wasn't convincing himself of anything considering how much he whines about doing the wrong thing until Aang's group finally accepts him and he goes right back to where he was before the season 2 finale. It was character derailment, plain and simple.

[The Shadow Gentleman]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it. Honestly, Zuko should have switched sides earlier. I think it would have been a lot more interesting that way.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I can sort of agree with Rob. I don't necessarily see it as an addiction as he put it. But I think its more of what he said before that point, of how it felt like Zuko was really only settling for living out his life with his Uncle in their tea shop because he had to convince himself to like it since it was the only option he really had at the time. When Azula gave him the immediate offer to redeem himself by helping her defeat the Avatar, it was enough temptation to immediately snap him out of his delusion of what he thought he wanted.

Keep in mind that it doesn't undo all of the transformation that Zuko had undergone before like so many people think. He did get sick in the process of his change, and he DID change, its just that the change was never about accepting his new life in the Earth Kingdom. Zuko was a character who was always destined for more than that, and deep down he knew he wanted to achieve more than that. He WANTED to be accepted back into the Fire Nation and have his honor restored in the eyes of his people, and he realized that much. What he didn't realize is that its not really his father's acceptance which he needed to restore his honor, but at the time its what he thought, so when Azula made the offer he just couldn't refuse. He still hadn't undergone one last major change, which was realizing that his father was a dick and that he needed to stand up for himself, and that's what his turn allowed him to see in the first half of Book 3, so in that regard I see it as justified.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I just don't buy it. The problem was that he expressed no doubts about his situation whatsoever since he arrived in Ba Sing Se and after Zuko Alone he came to terms with the fact that what he was doing was wrong. There was no foreshadowing, character clues, or plot advances that gave any indication that Zuko was still unsure of his direction. Look, I get that sometimes people make the wrong decisions but they don't do it 180 degrees on top of betraying someone close to them at the possible expense of said person's life out of the blue.

The impression that I get is they just wanted to 'shock' fans and pull the story in the way they wanted to instead of the way it should have naturally gone.

No its not a shock, and it never came out that way to me. Rob does have a point about how Zuko acted when he "accepted" his new life. He didn't really want that. You say that its just the writers taking the story in the way that they want, but that's a moot point because I could just as easily argue that its not a way that you wanted the story to go in. Either way, it still makes sense. The foreshadowing to me was there in just how strong Zuko's prophecies were. I mean, if you think about what you were saying, and he didn't turn, then his character arc would have just ended there and he wouldn't really decide to join up with the Avatar, but instead just go right back to living a peaceful life with his Uncle after the conflict was over, and try not to involve himself in the war at all. That's not who Zuko is as a character.

Also, you forget that Zuko still held some respect for his father by that point. It was "false" respect, but he didn't really realize that yet. He still believed at that point that his father cared for him in some way and that his banishment was just a way to toughen him up and have him learn form his past "mistakes" in life.

Also, it's clear he wasn't convincing himself of anything considering how much he whines about doing the wrong thing until Aang's group finally accepts him and he goes right back to where he was before the season 2 finale. It was character derailment, plain and simple.

This is such a narrow-minded view of things the way you express it. If you see it that way, then fine, but don't act like your interpretation is the only one. Plain-and-simple it is not. I don't buy you just brushing off Rob's points because he brings up legitimate ones. It annoys me more than anything else when someone acts like their opinion is fact, so the way you prhased this part really bothers me more than your actual difference in opinion from mine.

[Spark Of Spirit]

It doesn't bother me so much anymore since the series is over and done and Zuko's confrontation with Ozai and his relationship with Mai had some good pay-offs to the story, but I still think the story would have been more interesting if he switched sides then and there. No use crying over what isn't, though.

But it's not the worst part of the season 2 finale. That would be Azula's plan which goes off far too well and requires an Agatha Christie-level of events to be believable. Throwing in Zuko on top of her plans makes them seem even more incredulous. There's no way she could plan something that well.

[Spark Of Spirit]

It doesn't really matter anymore, but it still doesn't feel right to me even years later. That's the only way I can really explain it.

Also, it's clear he wasn't convincing himself of anything considering how much he whines about doing the wrong thing until Aang's group finally accepts him and he goes right back to where he was before the season 2 finale. It was character derailment, plain and simple.

This is such a narrow-minded view of things the way you express it. If you see it that way, then fine, but don't act like your interpretation is the only one. Plain-and-simple it is not. I don't buy you just brushing off Rob's points because he brings up legitimate ones. It annoys me more than anything else when someone acts like their opinion is fact, so the way you prhased this part really bothers me more than your actual difference in opinion from mine.

My interpretation is the one I put more stock into because it's mine... that's kind of why I have it in the first place. 

Can't do much about the way you see my comments, though.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I didn't have that much of a problem with Azula's plan working out just the way she wanted. The only part I personally disliked, which I'm surprised is the one thing that Desensitized didn't mention, is specifically how Zuko was so willing to trust Azula on a dime, when she had previously been out to kill him without remorse. THAT's the part of his turn that didn't make sense to me. I could buy it more if it was somehow Zuko's own father in that position who was making him the offer. Having it come from Azula just didn't make sense to me. Well, it made sense that Azula needed Zuko on her side at that point, otherwise she risked a 3-on-1 confrontation, but still, for Zuko to not expect Azula to immediately double-cross him after the confrontation was over just struck me as idiotic of him, even if she did stay true to her word and got him back in good standing with Ozai.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I didn't have that much of a problem with Azula's plan working out just the way she wanted. The only part I personally disliked, which I'm surprised is the one thing that Desensitized didn't mention, is specifically how Zuko was so willing to trust Azula on a dime, when she had previously been out to kill him without remorse. THAT's the part of his turn that didn't make sense to me. I could buy it more if it was somehow Zuko's own father in that position who was making him the offer. Having it come from Azula just didn't make sense to me. Well, it made sense that Azula needed Zuko on her side at that point, otherwise she risked a 3-on-1 confrontation, but still, for Zuko to not expect Azula to immediately double-cross him after the confrontation was over just struck me as idiotic of him, even if she did stay true to her word and got him back in good standing with Ozai.

Well, she knew the Dai-Li would betray the earth kingdom, that a highly paranoid state wouldn't background-check a couple of girls (before the earth king even saw them, mind you), that Zuko would betray Iroh, and knew how to beat an avatar state Aang. All of these play out in masterful execution as if she knew how all the events would play out.

One or two of them, fine. But throw in them all and it just makes me think that she got incredibly lucky.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

My interpretation is the one I put more stock into because it's mine... that's kind of why I have it in the first place. 

Can't do much about the way you see my comments, though.

No, I wasn't talking about your interpretation. I was talking about how you basically made it sound like what is basically YOUR interpretation of that part of the series was the ONLY way to interpret it. When you said "plain-and-simple," that sounds me to me like you are saying your take on that segment is fact, and that any other interpretation of it is wrong. That's my beef with what you said there. I don't actually have a problem with you having a different take on the segment and not liking it, as that itself is perfectly understandable based on your reasons.

[Spark Of Spirit]

My interpretation is the one I put more stock into because it's mine... that's kind of why I have it in the first place. 

Can't do much about the way you see my comments, though.

No, I wasn't talking about your interpretation. I was talking about how you basically made it sound like what is basically YOUR interpretation of that part of the series was the ONLY way to interpret it. When you said "plain-and-simple," that sounds me to me like you are saying your take on that segment is fact, and that any other interpretation of it is wrong. That's my beef with what you said there. I don't actually have a problem with you having a different take on the segment and not liking it, as that itself is perfectly understandable based on your reasons.

Plain and simple means that's the straightforward why I see it, plain and simple. 

I'm sorry if I offended you with my tact. 

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Well, she knew the Dai-Li would betray the earth kingdom, that a highly paranoid state wouldn't background-check a couple of girls (before the earth king even saw them, mind you), that Zuko would betray Iroh, and knew how to beat an avatar state Aang. All of these play out in masterful execution as if she knew how all the events would play out.

Well, I already pointed out how Zuko siding with Azula of all people doesn't make much sense.

That said, the whole Dai-Li thing makes sense to me. She knew she was stronger than the general and if she needed to would be powerful enough to escape if worst came to worst. Remember, she's a prodigy and the general even had to acknowledge that he couldn't possibly beat her. As for the Kyoshi Warrior thing, first off, nobody but Aang and friends knew what they looked like. Secondly, its not like the world of Avatar had any Internet or any fast-travel method of spreading information by that point, so it would be kind of hard to do a background check on people from other areas outside of Ba Sing Se. In this case, the king had to take the Avatar's word for it that the Kyoshi Warriors were their allies, and being the naive guy he is he made Azula's job easier, of course. Now keep in mind, she hadn't even planned on the Earth King being naive, so it was just a bit of luck she used on her part to her advantage (like when he let slip the plan to attack the fire nation during a solar eclipse). That said, it was clear to me how her plan would have worked even with a more stern leader, as she was able to outwit the general that way. If you think about it, all of her risks were calculated, in the sense that I don't believe she knew for certain that everything would work out in her favor, but even if they didn't she could get out of the situation and re-strategize if she wanted to, just like how she lost the battle involving the drill.

As for killing Aang in the Avatar state, I think you may be reading too much into that. Who's to say that she ever planned for that to happen? To me it always just seemed like she saw an opening when Aang was emerging from the crystal barrier he created and took that opportunity to attack when his guard was down. That's not something you plan for. That's just her own battle skill and experience being put to work.

[gunswordfist]

I wish we got to see Zuko act as a leader in some form when he got accepted back by his father and namely before he became Firelord. The only time he acted as a good leader during the entire show was during The Storm

[Spark Of Spirit]

I think this is one we're going to have to agree to disagree about (and I'm usually the last to say that) because for the amount of times I've watched the series through the season 2 finale still doesn't sit right with me. I've tried looking at it from multiple angles, but no matter how hard I try to see it from another perspective it just pushes me back towards my initial feelings about it not feeling right regardless. There's not really much to discuss beyond the way we think is better because the season 2 finale is still one of the most controversial elements of the series (beyond the whole 'Zuko is still a bad guy? NO' shippers or whatever they're called) and is one I've tried to like. But I'm sorry to say that it just isn't happening for me.

I wish we got to see Zuko act as a leader in some form when he got accepted back by his father and namely before he became Firelord. The only time he acted as a good leader during the entire show was during The Storm

IIRC, didn't he try to and was sent away? His family treated him more as a war prize than anything else.