Fair is Fair

[Avaitor]

So I have this idea for a thread. Let's be real for a moment and admit that nothing is perfect. And sometimes the things we love most aren't anywhere close to perfection. But hey, wabi sabi, right?

I dare you to pick a couple of your favorite live-action TV shows, and name at least one major flaw you have with it. But to remind yourself and prove to us why you love it, ho about you pick at least one major perk it has. I'm going with the first five that come to mind myself.

How I Met Your Mother

The bad- Padding, padding, padding. padding. Padding padding padding padding padding padding padding. Padding, padding. Padding. And did I mention padding?

Look, I'm loving the show as much as ever, and it's certainly a lot funnier now than most sitcoms result in by their 7th season, but Ted's inability to leave shit out of his stories is pretty ridiculous when you think about it. I'm starting to see why he decided to start the story off by telling his kids how he met their aunt Robin, but still, when you think about it, 8 years is a long-ass time to get the point across. And what's even more alarming is that there's talks of continuing the show after Ted meets the mother and renaming it.

Oh, and not to mention that most of the people Ted and Robin date tend suck as characters.

The good- I only just discovered my first continuity flaw the other night, and it isn't really that big (in season 1, Robin said she never played team sports in high school, just singles tennis- in season 4, we see that her dad forced her to be a part of the hockey team). Otherwise, it's amazing to look back and see all the little inside jokes from earlier seasons that become major parts later on. And there is some stronger character development in this one sitcom than I can think of in a high amount of network dramas.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer

The bad- I could easily mention the dated CG effects and all the grain in the prints, but besides technical flaws, let's be honest sometimes the show was a little too silly for its own good. I get a lot of laughs from the interactions, but yeah, I can see how people like Michael24 can get annoyed by the library scenes and such.

The good- It's been about a decade since Willow and Tara got together, but I can't think of a show with a more likable gay teenage couple. The Glee writers seriously should watch some of this a little more clearly. And some of the show's odd combinations of humor, heart and horror do work very well. I refuse to think a better hour of television has been made than "Once More With Feeling".

Firefly

The bad- The bilingual mesh of English and Chinese sounds cool in theory, but in execution, I think it gets a little grating. Whenever the characters curse in Chinese it feels like Whedon wants us to think it's cute that they replace the words "shit" or "asshole" with Mandrin, and the actors just couldn't pull the phrases off.

And as much as I love Serenity, it just makes me really wish that Fox could've at least made a full season of the show before axing it. I think that some of the development went by way too fast, since Whedon had to add in at least half a season's worth of ideas into one movie.

The good- I LOVE the way the galaxy was set up in this show. Besides the sci-fi western mesh-up, which really isn't like the trifectia of awesome from 98,  it's refreshing to see points of view from all spectrums of classes in the future besides  councilmen and space rats. Not to mention that the music kicks ass.

Doctor Who (just sticking to the new here; I'm just now starting to watch some of the older stuff)

The bad- Well, I think that Amy's a bit of a bitch, for one thing.

I also think that the RTD run has a lot of weird moments in it that don't hold up under closer inspection, which Insommy and Dalek know way more about than I do. Moffat has some good stuff under his plate as of now, but, really, when all is considered, the fuck was up with series 6?

The good-  As confusing as it got, series 6 has my two favorite episodes- "Let's Kill Hitler" and "The Girl Who Waited", which combine the best of the best on the show. When it's really good, Doctor Who can be a very humanistic show which proves the importance of every single person in the universe, be it by themselves or in unison. And really, the 3 Doctors from this current iteration are each incredible actors which bring a lot to the table in terms of originality and their own views on the character and the show's history.

Parks and Recreation

The bad- Really, is there a point to the camera-fronted format? I mean, I get it, the staff came fresh off of The Office at its height of quality and wanted to strike lightning twice, but the reason that show interviewed its characters at any given time was to make the world's worst documentary that'll never see the light of day. Modern Family uses its cameras to film the highest rated reality show in Switzerland (I think that's where it airs?), and many of its best lines come from those scenes. P&R? No backstory, no purpose, and the fun comes from elsewhere.

The good- The reason I've grown to wait for this over Community on NBC's Thursday night lineup is for the characters, which are some of the finest I've seen in a sitcom in years. They're all backed behind some gifted character actors who are able to make up their own mannerisms and unique stylings of humor.

Everyone talks about how incredible Ron and how empowering Leslie are, but what about April? She's the kind of depressive character that doesn't get old at all, since she's not at all mopey but just apathetic and slightly sadistic. Tom Hatherford is the slick one, who has a lot of great lines on his own (noodles= long ass rice). Then there's Ann, who started off sweet and a tad clueless to the rest of the team, but has seriously grown some ovaries over the years. Chris is the best character Rob Lowe's ever done, by far. Ben started off as a perfect character foil for Leslie, and their relationship has surprisingly made for the sweetest aspect of the show. Jerry and Donna have turned from barely there characters into scene stealers in their own rights. And Andy has that gift of being able to make you laugh with just a simple facial expression, which you rarely ever get on TV anymore. It's such a funny show, but that weak first season killed its potential to gain the following it truly deserves. Maybe when it gets into syndication, more people can see what they're missing, or missed.

[Dr. Insomniac]

The Wire

The Bad - David Simon can be fucking preachy when he wants to. Yes, he brings up good messages like how school systems are fucked, the war on drugs is hopeless, and newspapers are going down the sensational shitter. But there are so many times when they get in the way of the story instead of help it advance.

The Good - That said, it's still the best fucking show ever. Take Stringer Bell's character for example. Originally being the more logical-minded of the Barksdale crew, he slowly grew more unhinged with each season. Seeing his eventual downfall is Miltonesque in its portrayal. You could feel both the positive and negative impacts of his end, even to the end of the show when he's long gone.

Misfits

The Bad - Howard Overman isn't particularly good at resolving plots without coming up with something contrived. This wasn't a problem in series 1, but it ended up plaguing the later parts of the show. Plus, the show's infatuation with Simon's character caused the others to lose theirs. People like Alicia started to become satellites instead of actual people.

The Good - It has grit and isn't afraid to punch the audience. It's so refreshing to see something superhero-oriented that can go toe-to-toe with Game of Thrones in terms of offing characters.

And if Dalek won't say anything by tomorrow, I'll be sure to give a long diatribe on what's wrong and right with the original series.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Agreed on HIMYM. Despite its issues, I do like it the best of CBS's sitcoms.

Also, I've never really cared for Buffy. I actually enjoyed Angel more as a whole. I actually think it's Whedon's secret best show. Sort of like how KOTH is Judge's best show for anyone who paid attention.

Judging from Insommy's reaction, I'd probably hate Misfits. 

[Foggle]

Battlestar Galactica (2003)

The Bad - Everything after the New Caprica arc was obviously made up as they went along. The first two seasons and miniseries were utter brilliance on nearly every level and seemed to be carefully laid out from the beginning, and the final two seasons disregarded any and all foreshadowing, changed characters for the worse, featured laughable plot points, and sometimes even forgot that it was a science-fiction show.

The Good - The first two seasons are still some of the absolute best television I've ever seen and hold up very well no matter how many times I watch them.

I'll do more later.

EDIT: Forgot the show name lol

[Avaitor]

Also, I've never really cared for Buffy. I actually enjoyed Angel more as a whole. I actually think it's Whedon's secret best show. Sort of like how KOTH is Judge's best show for anyone who paid attention.

Angel is very good... in points. There's also a lot of points where I get bored out of my mind from it, like the majority of season 3. But when it's good, it's good. My major perk from it would be that it almost always has a great ensemble. Be it Buffy regulars like Angel, Spike and Cordy, or a good amount of originals.

[Lord Dalek]

And if Dalek won't say anything by tomorrow, I'll be sure to give a long diatribe on what's wrong and right with the original series.

Eh knock yourself out.

[Lord Dalek]

Supernatural

The Bad - Padalecki and Ackles are pretty terrible actors (hence "Abercrombie and Fitch Paranormal Investigators"). The storyline is a mess of grandiose threads that often go nowhere, to the point where it seems they ran out of material four seasons ago. Often has a distinct "too many cooks" aroma to it.

The Good - Probably the only show on The CW with the gall to laugh at itself and its own ridiculousness. Frequently does black comedy better than The X-Files did in its "funny years".  Oh and Mark Sheppard is awesome in anything (even BSG season 3).

[Dr. Insomniac]

Doctor Who

Hartnell Era

The Bad - Aside from Ian and Barbara, the companions are given remarkably little to show in terms of character. I know a 60s teatime show hardly called for sophisticated writing, but it shows you're lacking when several of the actresses quit due to complaints on their characters' lack of depth. With companions like Vicki, Dodo, Polly, there's little to their characters other than to be there to show audience sympathy and all that.

The Good - It still contributes to the mythos in ways that modern producers could only dream of doing. The first Doctor-lite episode. The first time companions died. And so much more. Plus, it has that air of mystery to the Doctor that has since disappeared. Back then, nobody knew what Time Lords were, or what Gallifrey was, just that this was an old man traveling in space and time for his own amusement like the old motherfucker he is. It got straight to the story without worrying about continuity or the like.

Troughton Era

The Bad - It got repetitive with the "base under siege" stories. The writers seemed to think that people only watch Doctor Who for the monsters instead of the variety. So for all of season 5, we had "Oh no, Doctor! The Yeti/Cybermen/Ice Warriors are coming for us!"

The Good - Troughton is one of the most influential Doctors we've ever had. You can see his clownishness in McCoy, Baker, Tennant, and Smith, his whimsy in Eccleston, Davison, and McGann. He is, in many ways, the Doctor that the Doctors look up to. And once his lost stories get animated, I'm sure we'll see a renaissance of the Troughton side of the fandom.

Pertwee Era

The Bad - It's as far from Who as Who could get. The mystery of the previous seasons is gone in favor of the Doctor being this guy that helps UNIT. It stops being Doctor Who in favor of being Quatermass-lite.

The Good - It's the most consistent of the eras, feeling like its own show in comparison to the others. Hulke, Dicks, and Letts do quite well in making this distinct from all the other eras. Plus, it's fun to see Benton, Yates, the Brig, and Liz/Jo/Sarah develop into people as monster after monster attacks them.

Baker Era

The Bad - After the first three seasons and Horror of Fang Rock, everything goes to hell. There are points where it descends into the "Tom Baker does silly things in order to make us laugh" Show. It gets detrimental to the point when it's no longer Graham Williams, but Baker and his brigade of Romanas that control the tone of the show. As much flack as JNT gets, he does good in making sure Tom would stop being a egotistic ham for his final season.

The Good - Tom has good chemistry with everyone, and his antics do add needed relief for stories that can be frighteningly bleak at times.

Davison Era

The Bad - It's bland. The Fifth Doctor is the Bland Doctor. Tegan is the Bland Companion. All of the monsters are so blandy, blander McBlanderson.

But really, the problem with this era is that it dates itself far more than previous eras. You can watch a Davison story, be grabbed by the plot, and suddenly, the Eighties hit you. The first three episodes of Snakedance are perfectly acceptable until BOOM! Eighties. Warriors of the Deep is only moderately horrible when BOOM! Eighties. The only thing that could make it more Eighties is if Adric was forced to wear legwarmers and a tube top that showed his nipples.

The Good - Caves of Androzani is good. Would be better if it weren't for the Eighties.

Other Baker Era

The Bad - JNT is past his prime, not being able to be a proper producer in favor of "I WANT SONTARANS IN MY STORIES & FUCK YOU IF YOU DISAGREE!" Saward isn't any better for passing up scripts from PJ Hammond, Pat Mills, and Christopher Priest in favor of Pip & Jane fucking Baker. And with the companions, they're set back several decades in favor of being complete caricatures. Any sort of genuine emotion is thrown out in favor of being one of the most bombastic shows of all time.

The Good - Colin Baker gives his all in trying to portray the Doctor, something that thankfully passes onto the audios.

McCoy Era

The Bad - It was over-ambitious in its attempt to be anti-Thatcher. With the poor budget and unsubtle writing, we got stories about pink-haired dictators trying to quell unhappiness along with giant pieces of candy killing people. It tried to copy the style of people like Alan Moore and his early works like Halo Jones, while failing miserably in doing what he could do.

The Good - Seven/Ace is still the best ensemble to this day. It's like a fucking Arthurian story where the Doctor trains Ace to be worth more than a piece of shit through tricks and sorcery. What we initially thought about the Doctor gets turned around its head as he starts becoming villainous and calculating. It allows for a grayer and ultimately more layered show that got killed just as it was getting good.

[Lord Dalek]

Well I wouldn't say Tom goes immediately downhill after Fang Rock. More like midway through Key to Time.

[Dr. Insomniac]

Babylon 5

The Bad - Aside from Bester, the show has poorly written villains. Instead of trying to give them a detailed backstory of motive like with Sheridan or Garibaldi, JMS just portrays them as evil overlords with only insanity or egomania fueling their ideology. I still remember how the show treated President Clark as this faceless villain that seemed to do evil things only because the writers made it so. We got no reason for why he was such an evil douche, and it's to the show's fault that we get nothing beyond that in terms of character.

The Good - With that aside, this is still one of the best character-driven shows ever. It has the ability to turn seemingly smug characters into saints, while making those who look like shining knights turn out to be bastards. All with clear and sound writing. I especially like season 4 and how it was basically a year-long clusterfuck of character arcs paying off.

[Avaitor]

Community

The bad- No one acts like this. Like ANY of the characters. The reason I always tell people to go with Parks over Community is thatP&R has a better, more relatable and likable ensemble cast, while Community's is cold and often nauseating. Britta is the same kind of self-righteous, snobbish post-modern feminist you see all over the place, but a little too old to justify being one. As adorable as I find Alison Brie, Annie is borderline creepy in her sheepishness. Jeff comes off as a condescending asshole far more than a stable voice of reason, and while I'm at it, the love triangle between the above 3 characters is nearly as lame as the relationships in 30 Rock. Pearce went too far with his asshattery in the second season. And if you know anyone who is exactly like Abed, I'm sorry for you.

Another major problem lies with Chang, in that there doesn't seem to be a reason for him to be on the show ever since the gang finished their Spanish course. Maybe if they knew what to do with him it wouldn't be so bad, but Ken Jeong's shtick gets old fast. He's just a waste of space.

The good- I don't think we're supposed to like the characters to begin with. At least not Jeff and Britta. Everyone has some good lines throughout their course, and as irritating as I find the characters to be, I like a good amount of their character arcs. But it's really the concept episodes that sell the show. The paintball epics, the Pulp Fiction/My Dinner With Andre tribute episode, the time warp, and the video game episode all come to mind for great stuff.

[Avaitor]

Bumping because there's a couple of shows I wanna tackle. All sitcom edition!

The Mary Tyler Moore Show

The bad- The weakest episodes of the show almost always consisted of Mary's random dates with random guys, as they fall into the same damn formula each time- they meet awkwardly, both parties like each other at first, but either Mary or someone else picks out their glaring fault(s) and the two call it quits before the episode ends.

It's rarely ever Mary's reason for the break-up either, which is what makes it so irritating. It's almost like a Taylor Swift song come to life whenever the shoe fell into this trope.

The bad- Otherwise, it is THE sitcom. You're never going to find a better balance of comedic and expectation-breaking actors than Mary Tyler Moore, Valerie Harper, Ed Asner, Ted Knight, Gavin MacLeod, Cloris Leachman, Georgia Engel, and mother fucking Betty White in one show, nor characters with broken innocence like Mary, regretful wit like Rhoda, hilariously irrational anger like Lou, the indescribable mood swings, and surprising growth, of Ted, a self deprecating sense of humor like Murray, spontaneous contempt like Phyllis, cheerful stupidity like Georgette, or spiteful glee like mother fucking Sue Ann Nivens all rolled up together.

Even early on, the characters and chemistry had been fine-tuned to near perfection, so they never feel wasted when used. Still, the show more or less got better with each passing year, and the last season was one of the first examples of a sitcom using it's final season to tie up as many loose ends as they could, which has become commonplace now. It just rocks.

M*A*S*H

The bad- One thing that sure as hell dates the show is it's attitude towards women. The nurses only seem to exist for Hawkeye and Trapper John (or later just Hawkeye) to woo, and rarely are shown to do much else. Even Hot Lips is constantly slut shamed during her fling with Frank Burns, At least some of the raunchier humiliations she endears in the book and movie don't make it on the show.

It also falls too safe with its replacement characters, going with familiar traits (a friendly if occasionally goofy colonel, a wacky comrade and co-surgeon for Hawkeye, a conservative wish-wash rival for Hawk) when the need to switch out their main actors comes. Hell, right now, there's even a fling being hinted out with Hot Lips and Winchester. Granted, Colonel Potter, BJ, and even Winchester are fine characters, but it doesn't seem like the staff tried too hard to come up with them at first.

And as a straight drama, the show just isn't that strong. Which it becomes more of the longer it stayed on.

The good- But as a balance of comedy and drama, it can become very effective. The cast, as often as it changes over the years, is strong enough to pull either off at any given moment. There's also plenty of good development over the course of the show. It becomes apparent that Hawkeye's dry wit is a defense mechanism to ease his mind from the casualties and perils he has to face with every day, and his sense of humor becomes darker each day. Hot Lips isn't as much of a tightwad, and her motives for her actions become explained and justified increasingly so as the show goes along. Radar isn't anywhere near as much of a pushover as he was in the beginning, as his maturity is defined by leaving his teddy bear at the 4077th at his final episode. Even Klinger is seen in olive drab more and more over the years.

Not to mention that Alan Alda just plain rocks. There's a reason the show changed its focus from Hawkeye and Trapper to just Hawkeye- he's just too charismatic to share the spotlight with anyone else. Not to say that the rest of the cast doesn't get their time in the light, but Hawk appears in every episode for a reason. He also happens to be a fine writer and director,.

Cheers

The bad- It kind of says something when a long-running show's first two seasons are their best, and even those aren't perfect. The first had a great angle with the will-they won't-they relationship between Sam and Diane, but those first few episodes suffer from the typical early awkward of a TV show, and the spouts of casual racism and homophobia in some of those episodes doesn't sit well. Meanwhile, the second season actually did benefit by having Sam and Diane date before the drama that plagued their history would get away in the oncoming seasons, but even that started to get stale by the end of this season.

While the show did benefit in certain ways after losing Shelley Long (I'd say that I'm a Rebecca fan myself), particularly by allowing more of a focus on the rest of the cast, there was always something missing after Coach died. On top of that, the weaker seasons of the Rebecca years did have overlapping arcs with Sam failing to hook up with Becky while she focused on her rich guy of the month.

The bad- Then again, I don't think the show ever really went down in quality over its 11 years. There are also few duds in the show's course. I could blind pick practically any episode from the show and get a bunch of laughs from them. That's pretty crazy, especially when you remember that series that run half as long don't remain as consistent during their run..

And what's not to love about the cast? Or the dialogue? This is basically the quintessential ensemble comedy.