Battle Shonen Stuff

[Spark Of Spirit]

Oh, cool. That's nice to know! I'm not all that up on anime series directors. But the direction in those episodes are good in how they take the fight off the page and into motion.

But anyway, other than the Death Note guys, and possibly the Enigma writer, few shonen approach their battles with as much intensity as that where the #1 threat isn't actually the villain's strength, but the hero's strength.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I just realized the fight was removed from youtube (Why, I don't know, they were just clips), so here's another link (even if it's missing the Togashi-ish build up) to my favorite shonen fight.

[Rynnec]

I just realized the fight was removed from youtube (Why, I don't know, they were just clips),

Youtube seems to be really anal about removing clips from certain anime, even though they're just fights. And it's pissing me off to no end. Who the hell wants to rewatch a half-dozen episodes of Bleach and Naruto just to see their favorite fight?

[gunswordfist]

IMO, this fight (Spoilers for Yu Yu Hakusho) is by far the best one in a shonen.

Why? The entire staging in the hospital, the set up of the mystery of who the enemy is, the clever use of skills, the themes of the arc coming to play in the battle, every character is crucial to taking down the enemy, and to top it off... The direction by Furuhara is perfect. When I think of Chapter Black, this is always the first thing that pops into my mind in how it pretty much encapsulates everything great about the series and arc in this one battle.

So yeah, that's what I want the genre to be more like. That fight.

Links don't work for me. EK did post them though,which prompted me making this avatar.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I reposted it on this page, since it was removed from youtube hates anime clips for some reason. It's the Doctor fight from YYH.

[gunswordfist]

I reposted it on this page, since it was removed from youtube hates anime clips for some reason. It's the Doctor fight from YYH.

I know, hence me talking about my avatar.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

You know, I've been thinking of things that the shonen genre really needs, or at least that a shonen series can use to stand-out from the crowd and actually be good, and I came to one conclusion:

A smart main character....who isn't overpowered or an ass-hole.

Now let me stress that I'm talking specifically about battle shonen series here. Stuff like Death Note and Enigma have smart main characters but they aren't really about battles (at least not physical ones, anyways). However, as far as battle series go, how many can you think of in recent memory (or in any memory, at all) that have main characters that aren't naive but instead intelligent and witty WITHOUT being written as snobs or douche-bags? As for me, not many (there are a few, like Kenshin as an example, but its hard to think of more than that).

You see, most mangaka seem to prefer sticking to the spunky, naive kid archetype because that works well with younger audiences since they either don't know any better or don't care. The few that make smarter characters usually end up failing because they either forget to make them likable or just don't make them very interesting at all (Alan Walker from D. Gray-Man is the perfect example of the latter, since he's just so damned bland). In the worst cases they will make them too overpowered as if they always know everything, which is no fun for the reader because then there is never any challenge for the hero and thus you have no reason to care about what he does, or in other cases they just make the main character really pretentious which is equally as annoying (I hate to say it, but I consider some FMA characters to be really guilty of the latter; and I do actually consider the manga and Brotherhood to be a battle shonen at its core, even though its disguised as something different).

To me, the closest thing I've seen to someone getting the formula of the smart main character right is Nobuhiro Wakatsuki with Rurouni Kenshin, as I mentioned before, and to a bit of a lesser degree Togashi with certain parts of HXH, since usually characters other than Gon are quite intelligent, and in the instances in which he lets them become main characters of the story for a while. I'm speaking of characters such as Kurapika who got an entire arc devoted to his character, or in some instances of the Chimera Ant arc and more recently in the current manga, Killua, when he goes off by himself and is away from Gon for a while. Stuff like that is fresh to me because the characters are surprisingly insightful and interesting to watch while not coming off as complete ass-holes or something to be so unrealistically smart that they are too overpowered.

If you ask me that feature alone would got a long way towards making for a great series that feels fresh within the genre, and give the genre the kick in the pants that it needs after so many derivative and uninspired Bleach clones that come out these days.

[Spark Of Spirit]

It isn't perfect, and it has flaws, but you should give MxO a read sometime. The author found the perfect way to include full out battles, but have the main character mainly rely on his wits throughout. The series was pretty popular (it lasted about 99 chapters, anyway) but sagged in popularity because it relied too much on ecchi element at times. But the actual shonen parts were really fun.

Had he lightened up on the ecchi and introduced more villains, I think it would have been a hit. Sadly, it managed to get canceled before really taking off.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I don't mind Ecchi elements as long as they don't take precedence over actual good story-telling and interesting characters and battles. I can even stand if the Ecchi is pretty ridiculous and goes overboard if the series itself is still fun to read for its more shonen-like aspects (done sell, of course).

That's why I could put up with a series like HSDK up until the end of the DofD arc (as more of a guilty pleasure, though), because at its heart it still carried elements of a corny but classic shonen story. However once that arc was over the manga did EVERYTHING that I hate about series that rely too heavily on Ecchi and on top of that it somehow managed to make likable characters that were at least suitably 2-dimensional in an entertaining way into 1-dimensional  non-existent objects that were only suited to serving as background imagery. I swear, its as if a completely different author took over writing for the series after the DofD arc. Its kind of astounding and surprising to see how far the series fell in such a quick amount of time. Needless to say I don't read it anymore, but if I ever write an article about what a good shonen series should not do or avoid doing, I'll use HSDK as one of my primary examples.

Anwyays, as for MX0 I've heard good things about it so I plan to give it a read, some day. I should mention that in Flame of Recca there are a few surprising instances in which Recca can be kind of smart and while certainly not a genius he can be pretty insightful into reading other people's emotions or coming up with complex but effective strategies to use in battle. I kind of wish that the author of that manga made his character progress more along those lines rather than have him randomly snap in and out of being pretty clever to going back to being your typical naive shonen protagonist.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

So, you know what I just realized is the main problem with 90% of currently running shonen series? The protagonists are EXTREMELY BORING characters! Honestly, I hate how every author decides to make their main character some goody-two-shoes who acts like he's above any form of sin. And no, just having them do some dirty things in comedic scenes or having them labeled as brainless oafs for not thinking and rushing into things sometimes doesn't count for shit. In order for me to care about a main character, they need to have clear flaws and weaknesses as well as strengths, rather than just being so damn perfect all the time, and they should have some things about them that are less than noble that end up having clear consequences within the story-line. It makes them more interesting especially since part of what would keep me reading it so see how they solve their problems, and I don't just mean something about their character that is merely resolved in an after-school style episode or a couple of chapters in the manga, but instead something that ends up becoming a central theme within the main story-line.

It really ticks me off because I somehow get the feeling that most shonen mangaka are under the impression that they are making these character likable, but really they are doing nothing more than goody-goody little dip-shits that bore the snot out of me or just plain annoy the fuck out of me. Either way this shit needs to stop.

[Dr. Insomniac]

Honestly, the main cast of every modern shonen doesn't seem to be written with personality in mind, but rather in "How much yaoi will this create?"

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

The main cast of just about every modern shonen lack ANY personality, period. I literally feel that you could take any dozen modern battle shonen series and interchange their main characters and nobody would know the difference.

The only currently running shonen series that I can think of that are exceptions to the rule aren't really modern series, either, since they have been running for a long time (as in since the 90's), and that's just plain sad. I mean, I know that people like Oda and Togashi are experienced mangaka so we can actually except their quality of work to be higher than the normal standards, but in this case newer mangaka don't even give them any standards to compare to, and people like them are among the only modern shonen writers who actually seem to know how to write an actual story with actual characters.

[Rynnec]

Well, they all have their different quirks, behavior, and mannerisms etc. The real problem with modern shounen is that not only are the main characters usually boring (no matter how much development Naruto gets, he'll never be an intersting character for me), but  they'll usually shaft characters who are actually intersting and/or have potential to develop as characters, in favor of far more boring, generic, bland-ass, one-note characters instead. Said characters usually end up being incredibly popular for God knows what reason. Naruto and Bleach are huge offenders of this.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Well, they all have their different quirks, behavior, and mannerisms etc. The real problem with modern shounen is that not only are the main characters usually boring (no matter how much development Naruto gets, he'll never be an intersting character for me), but  they'll usually shaft characters who are actually intersting and/or have potential to develop as characters, in favor of far more boring, generic, bland-ass, one-note characters instead. Said characters usually end up being incredibly popular for God knows what reason. Naruto and Bleach are huge offenders of this.

Yes, I've seen this a lot in anime in the last few years, not just shonen.

I don't know when exactly the interesting characters were pushed off to be one note or one shot characters, but I mean the characters are the #1 reason why people watch anything. There must be a reason that anime is getting more and more niche all over the world every year, and the lack of dynamic characters really contributes to it.

But it's not just newer authors, either. Rumiko Takahashi has been going for decades, and ever since Ranma 1/2 she hasn't been able to write a half interesting character. Togashi under-utilizes and kills off anyone not in the main four (or I should say main two, huh?) and Watsuki hasn't written a compelling character since Einishi. (Good sure, but nothing great)

We need some new blood out there who can reconnect with the roots of the genre and modernize them at the same time. Because I'm starting to think the oldest manga anyone in this industry has ever read was One Piece, and that's just missing out on a ton.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I actually kind it find of funny how any time a side-character in HXH starts getting really interesting, unless they are a villain they are sure to be dead. Its as if Togashi says to himself when writing: "Oh Gosh, this character is actually getting really interesting and compelling, and is even more interesting than the main characters of this series....well, we certainly can't have that; I'll have him killed off in the most gruesome way possible in the next chapter. There. Problem Solved!"

No, but seriously, it pisses me off as well. Still, even then, I do feel that Togashi can make his main characters interesting, at least. Killua has been there since the beginning of the story, and IMO he's never been dull for me, and continues to be one of the most interesting characters that Togashi has written, so in that regard at least he can still make interesting main characters with tons of personality and background. There are plenty of things to complain about in his writing, to be sure, but you can't deny that for as old of a mangaka as he is he's still sadly far more creative than any of the new "talent" (and I do use that world lightly, here) that is coming into the manga industry.

That said, I do agree that we need a fresh and new author who actually knows how to make a good story structure like in old shonen series and combine it with fresh and modern characters that actually have some sense of depth and personality to them. I'm not asking for anything Shakespeare level here, but I do think it would be nice to have a main character that has more than just 2-dimensions to them.