Metal Gear

[Foggle]

Like, you can make fun of the twist in 4 that Ocelot merely tricked everyone into thinking he was Ocelot using nanomachines, And I'll agree it was stupid. But let's be honest, how else was Kojima supposed to make sense of something as stupid as being mind controlled by Liquid through Liquid's arm? At the very least, I'll take the explanation in 4 over the original intent of 2.

I don't want to argue with you as your interpretation is just as valid as mine, but the plot twist was actually that Liquid had been mind-controlling Ocelot in MGS2, so he cut the arm off and then hypnotized himself to fool the Patriots into thinking that he was still being controlled.

So they somehow made it even stupider.

[talonmalon333]

What? Why didn't they just retcon it into saying that he always was just fooling the Patriots? They already came up with this stupid twist, so they might as well have used it to override the even stupider twist in MGS2.

And now that I think about it, wasn't Ocelot working for the Patriots in MGS2, despite being so against them in 4? Was he just a spy or something?

[Spark Of Spirit]

Because Kojima was on drugs when he wrote MGS2.

I'm glad it came back to bite him when he wrote 4. He shouldn't have written such slop in 2 in the first place.

[talonmalon333]

I mean, some ideas like the government censoring information and the whole recreation of Shadow Moses ideas could have been done well if they weren't so haphazardly slapped together, but I'll never defend things like arm mind control and Vamp.

[Foggle]

I love the concepts and themes behind MGS2's story, I just think it's executed incompetently.

[gunswordfist]

I love the gameplay, think the story is a mess.

[Foggle]

I love the gameplay, think the story is a mess.

Pretty much, yeah.

[talonmalon333]

It's interesting looking at how one of the themes of MGS2 is the censoring of digital information and then shortly later after the game's development, 9/11 happened...

The fact needs to be addressed, some of the themes in this game are actually relevant in our world. But doesn't that make it all the more a shame that it was executed as a big mess?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I remember reading about how Kojima had to completely rework his original ending for the game into something else, and on such short notice, due to the original ending being too controversial to put into a game being released so soon after 9/11 had happened.

[Peanutbutter]

I mean, some ideas like the government censoring information and the whole recreation of Shadow Moses ideas could have been done well if they weren't so haphazardly slapped together, but I'll never defend things like arm mind control and Vamp.

The arm control thing was stupid and just plain shouldn't have been written. There were other ways to bring Liquid back like old tape recordings or a video of him. Vamp was awesome though, and the explanation for his stunts made sense unlike the former.

[talonmalon333]

I remember reading about how Kojima had to completely rework his original ending for the game into something else, and on such short notice, due to the original ending being too controversial to put into a game being released so soon after 9/11 had happened.

I think the controversy was blown a little out of proportion, at least this bold part.

Significant changes to the game's ending were made late in development following the September 11 attacks in New York, where the finale occurs. A sequence depicting Arsenal Gear's displacement of the Statue of Liberty and crashing through half of Manhattan was removed, as was a short coda to appear after the credits, a breaking newscast showing the Statue of Liberty's new resting place, Ellis Island. At the point where Solidus dies, Raiden was supposed to have cut the rope on Federal Hall's flagpole, causing an American flag to fall over Solidus' body, and American flags that were supposed to be on all the flagpoles in New York were removed from the title.

I can agree that it was maybe too soon for them to have a sequence of something in New York City being nearly destroyed, but they should have left in Raiden cutting the rope on the flagpole. The way it looks in the actual game, you see Raiden raise his sword up to cut the rope, but it abruptly cuts away.

I mean, some ideas like the government censoring information and the whole recreation of Shadow Moses ideas could have been done well if they weren't so haphazardly slapped together, but I'll never defend things like arm mind control and Vamp.

The arm control thing was stupid and just plain shouldn't have been written. There were other ways to bring Liquid back like old tape recordings or a video of him. Vamp was awesome though, and the explanation for his stunts made sense unlike the former.

Didn't they just explain Vamp with nanomachines?

Also, what exactly did Big Boss, Ocelot, and the rest of the Patriots die from? Didn't they say it was from the Fox Die in Snake? How does that work? Isn't Fox Die an injection, and wouldn't it have to be injected into all of them?

[Foggle]

FoxDie makes specific genes and nanomachines explode... or something.

I remember the second Spider-Man game for PS1 had to be recalled after 9/11 because the final boss was fought on top of the World Trade Center.

[gunswordfist]

I remember in a magazine that they changed nothing I or they could have been wrong. idk.

I actually like Vamp. Wait,

Spoiler

Ocelot died? I was half paying attention when I finally did see the ending about two months ago

[close]

[Foggle]

I don't think the ending makes Ocelot's fate particularly clear.

[gunswordfist]

Last time I listen to any of the words that come out of talonmalon's mouth.