Metal Gear

[gunswordfist]

You dislike the Harrier Jet boss battle?

[talonmalon333]

There's a lot I don't care for in that game.

[gunswordfist]

You animal!

[talonmalon333]

Sorry. But I can't help it if the game isn't that good.

By the way, Foggle, how come the original Metal Gear is high on your favorites (can't remember if I asked this already)?

[Foggle]

I forgot about the Harrier fight. I liked that one, but not as much as the helicopter in MGS1.

By the way, Foggle, how come the original Metal Gear is high on your favorites (can't remember if I asked this already)?

Because I think it's extremely fun and, outside of a couple weird moments that practically necessitate using a walkthrough, shockingly well designed.

[talonmalon333]

For me, it falls lower on the list because of that primitive enemy AI and stealth gameplay, in addition to, as you mentioned, the parts that need a walkthrough.

[Foggle]

MGS1 being a downgraded MG2 feels more primitive to me tbh. Yeah, MG MSX is very basic, but it's also, like, the third stealth game ever - and the first one people actually cared about - from 1987.

[talonmalon333]

MGS1 being a downgraded MG2 feels more primitive to me tbh. Yeah, MG MSX is very basic, but it's also, like, the third stealth game ever - and the first one people actually cared about - from 1987.

How is MGS1 downgraded from MG2?

As for MG1, I'm not making fun of it or anything. I recognize its age is the reason why it's so primitive. But regardless, I still think it's primitive. I'm not calling it a bad game, either. I just think it's more interesting for historical reasons than it is for gameplay fun.

[Foggle]

Aside from the first-person mode, which doesn't do all that much, I feel like MGS1 didn't really add anything to the formula, and is actually less complex and detailed in its mechanics and design. It also feels slower in terms of general movement/action and IMO has a worse camera.

[talonmalon333]

But in what ways are it's mechanics and design less complex and detailed? I don't remember MGS being any less packed. If anything, it seemed to have more to it, if I remember correctly. Sure it did reuse many set pieces, but those set pieces had never been seen outside Japan anyway, so I imagine Kokima just wanted everyone to experience them.

[Foggle]

No puzzles, simplified level design, little point to setting traps, guards are easier to avoid, cardboard box isn't particularly effective. The new mechanics are interesting but don't seem to be that useful until MGS2 or even 3 or 4. I think my nostalgia for MGS1 and recent playthrough of MG2 may have made my expectations too high, honestly. I'll probably need to replay it in a few years to figure out my real opinion.

[talonmalon333]

No puzzles, simplified level design, little point to setting traps, guards are easier to avoid, cardboard box isn't particularly effective. The new mechanics are interesting but don't seem to be that useful until MGS2 or even 3 or 4. I think my nostalgia for MGS1 and recent playthrough of MG2 may have made my expectations too high, honestly. I'll probably need to replay it in a few years to figure out my real opinion.

Doesn't MGS1 have that puzzle where you have to guide the rocket to a certain switch? I also don't remember how the guards are easier to avoid, or how the level design is simplified. 8-bit is as simplistic as you can get, plus Shadow Moses is one of the great video game settings.

Also, if I remember correctly, MG2 has some of those confusing 8-bit moments where it's just unclear what to do. Like, I didn't care for that bird puzzle. Also, whether you like it or not, MGS1 brought a whole lot to the Metal Gear formula in that it's the game that brought a cinematic presentation to the series, and arguably gaming overall. I also think it has the second best story in the series (excluding Peace Walker, which I haven't played). I also liked its bosses more even though, as I mentioned earlier, that final boss in MG2 against Big Boss was very clever and much better than the horrible car scene that ended MGS1.

[Foggle]

I also don't remember how the guards are easier to avoid, or how the level design is simplified. 8-bit is as simplistic as you can get, plus Shadow Moses is one of the great video game settings.

In terms of actual level design (not camera angles, of course), there's really nothing in MGS1 that couldn't have also been done in an MSX game. Zanzibar Land and even Outer Heaven are much larger than Shadow Moses in terms of playable real estate, and have a lot more to do gameplay-wise. They may not have fancy 3D graphics, but their maps are big and intricate. Yes, the latter is much more impressive than the former due to the environmental details provided by Konami's talented artists and modellers, but I am speaking purely from a gameplay perspective here. Remove the cutscenes and codec calls and you're left with a very small game; a well-designed and realistically laid out one, but a small game nonetheless.

As for the guards, MG2 is generally considered harder than the 3D games in fan circles. The AI is more rudimentary, but the enemies have better hearing & move faster, and there are more of them.

I'm not disputing Shadow Moses' status or calling it badly designed. But playing it immediately after MG1 and 2, it definitely felt a lot smaller and less complex than its predecessors, to me.

Doesn't MGS1 have that puzzle where you have to guide the rocket to a certain switch?

I guess so, but the exact same puzzle is featured multiple times in the 8-bit games (including Ghost Babel), and it's more complicated and difficult in all of them.

Also, if I remember correctly, MG2 has some of those confusing 8-bit moments where it's just unclear what to do. Like, I didn't care for that bird puzzle. Also, whether you like it or not, MGS1 brought a whole lot to the Metal Gear formula in that it's the game that brought a cinematic presentation to the series, and arguably gaming overall. I also think it has the second best story in the series (excluding Peace Walker, which I haven't played). I also liked its bosses more even though, as I mentioned earlier, that final boss in MG2 against Big Boss was very clever and much better than the horrible car scene that ended MGS1.

The bird puzzle is simultaneously hilarious, terrible, and utterly brilliant. It makes no sense, but I figured it out pretty easily without a guide. MGS1 did, indeed, bring cinematic presentation to the entire medium of video games. It's an important game, and one that I respect greatly, which I have stated many times, but it just doesn't hold up that well for me. It's like how a lot of people don't care for the original Super Mario Bros. or Wolfenstein 3D, but still agree that they were amazing for their time.

MGS1 has the series' third best bosses after 3 and Rising, I'd say, as well as the third best story after 3 and Ghost Babel.

[talonmalon333]

In terms of actual level design (not camera angles, of course), there's really nothing in MGS1 that couldn't have also been done in an MSX game. Zanzibar Land and even Outer Heaven are much larger than Shadow Moses in terms of playable real estate, and have a lot more to do gameplay-wise. They may not have fancy 3D graphics, but their maps are big and intricate. Yes, the latter is much more impressive than the former due to the environmental details provided by Konami's talented artists and modellers, but I am speaking purely from a gameplay perspective here. Remove the cutscenes and codec calls and you're left with a very small game; a well-designed and realistically laid out one, but a small game nonetheless.

I can't agree with that. Because it's not like the entire game has the overhead viewpoint. There are points where the camera moves around, such as in certain outside portions and when you're back up against walls. MG2 also wouldn't be able to do the Sniperwolf fight or Metal Gear fights. And I doubt it could do that wonderful little moment where you have to switch controller plugs against Psycho Mantis (and even if it somehow could, it didn't). As for Outer Heaven and Zansibar Land, are they really that big? I remember a lot of backtracking, but I don't remember them being that big. Shadow Moses also has more variety in its locations. As for the size of the game, true, it's not especially long. But neither were MG1 and 2. Also, I think you are underestimating and maybe taking for granted some of the progressions that 3D allowed for MGS1.

MGS1 also has a better soundtrack than the first two games.

It's like how a lot of people don't care for the original Super Mario Bros. or Wolfenstein 3D, but still agree that they were amazing for their time.

In that sense, would you say MGS2 was a disappointment considering that it was, well, stupid even in the early 2000s?

[talonmalon333]

Also, this discussion reminds me that Spark should someday get around to the two MSX games.