Wrestling (WWE, etc.)

[Spark Of Spirit]

And can we talk about the cover for the new WWE game?



Look, I love Stone Cold, but seeing him there represents one of WWE's big problems. Relying on old stars and not having faith in their current men. That should absolutely be someone like Seth Rollins on that cover, or even Roman Reigns.

This game is seventeen years old. Exactly where the WWE wishes it still was.

Where is my No Mercy sequel already?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

On the point of Vince being so out of touch with the fans, I remember how popular Zack Ryder was becoming at one point, but instead of giving him a push, since Vince didn't intend for him to be a star, he had Zack become a joke by regularly making him the subject of squash matches. It's such a travesty when a once legendary promoter is so far gone that he actively attempts to destroy his talent and deny the fans what they want to see.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Let's also never forget Chris Jericho. A tremendous WCW presence that was COMPLETELY wasted in WCW. He jumped ship, and what happened? It's just amazing how short-sighted some of these people can be.

Oh yeah, for sure. In fact, just the other day me and Talon were discussing this very subject. Chris Jericho himself once explained that if you compared a WCW PPV to a WWF PPV, WWF almost ALWAYS had the superior main event, but WCW almost ALWAYS outsold them. As CJ explained, WCW at the time knew that a strong main event was not enough. The entire show had to be exciting, and WCW's extensive Cruiserweight division gave them a MUCH stronger mid-card than WWF.

Chris Jericho is also one of my favorite wrestlers of all time. Aside from being a technical genius in regard to his mat-work and general athletic ability (even into his goddamn 40's, for crying out loud), he has never let his ego get in the way of good matches, and he has put over so many wrestlers in his career without ever worrying about his own image being tarnished, and as a result the fans just love and respect him so much more for it.

WWE lost me about the time they lost all their competition. As it was shown pre-Attitude, they are very likely to start playing it safe and sticking with what works. Hence the desire to relive the Attitude era with worse writing and less talent instead of shooting for something better.

To be fair, there were still numerous excellent story-lines, feuds, and matches after the Attitude Era.

In-fact, look up Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania 21 on YouTube. It's the greatest singles match in all of Wrestling history that doesn't rely on any gimmicks and is pure technical wrestling to its finest. As much as I love the Attitude Era, I have to say that the following era up to around 2008 supported much stronger technical matches on a regular basis.

[talonmalon333]

On the point of Vince being so out of touch with the fans, I remember how popular Zack Ryder was becoming at one point, but instead of giving him a push, since Vince didn't intend for him to be a star, he had Zack become a joke by regularly making him the subject of squash matches. It's such a travesty when a once legendary promoter is so far gone that he actively attempts to destroy his talent and deny the fans what they want to see.

And this is despite the fact that Vince claims wrestlers need to get themselves over. Zack Ryder seriously put a lot into getting over with the fans. But now... he's no longer on televised WWE. He only appears once every few months to job to someone. Other than that, he's currently in a tag team on NXT which, despite being better than WWE Raw and SmackDown, is hard to not see as a demotion.

And Chris Jericho is just wonderful. As E-K said, not only is he a fantastic wrestler (seriously, he's in his mid forties, but just a few weeks ago he had a great match with the current IC champ), but he's put over so many wrestlers. Many know him to be one of the most selfless wrestlers in WWE history.

[talonmalon333]

How do you feel about what SmackDown has become in recent years?

[Peanutbutter]

In Ryder's case, I think it's because he moped on Twitter way too much. And there might have been even more from him backstage when that Kane angle was going on. When Bryan got paired with Kane in the silly anger management feud that exploded into the awesomeness that was Team Hell No, Bryan ran with it and was able to make the most out of it. He didn't complain on Twitter over his standing which was not really any better than Ryder. In fact, Ryder actually managed to turn a lot of his own fans against himself with how he carried himself on Twitter as I witnessed on other boards.


I think he's paid his dues and deserves another chance, but the boat has permanently sailed.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

From everything that I've read about the situation, that's absolutely not the case. Ryder was really popular with the fans, but neither Vince nor the writers were trying to give him a push in favor of other stars that they thought would be much better, so they never even gave him a chance to begin with. They made him the butt of joke matches and basically turned him into a jobber in order to deflate any momentum that he was gaining. This was before any Twitter comments that he made, by which time he had every right to be upset with how he was treated.

Additionally, since you bring up Daniel Bryan, you are aware that Vince pretty much tried to do the same thing with him, right? He was gaining a lot of popularity with the fans, but Vince didn't really want to give him a push. To avoid backlash, though, they had him get some time in the spotlight by defeating Cena at Summerslam, but then promptly gave the title to Orton by having him cash in his MITB. Then they had Bryan feud with Orton, win his first title match with him, but promotly lose the next, which ended the feud.

And then that big Wrestlemania win last year? That wasn't planned. At least not until the last minute. Vince and the writers wanted Bautista to go one-on-one with Orton for the title, and didn't even include Bryan in the Royal Rumble. This time the fans weren't having any if it, and the backlash was huge, so they finally decided to insert Bryan into the match, make it a triple-threat, and have him win the title like he deserved, but only after months of constant pushing by the fans. Basically, WWE had a clear star on their hands and they were actively trying to undermine their own talent rather than actually listening to both casual and hardcore fans alike. They basically denied their main consumer what they wanted and couldn't take a hint for months on end. That's....pretty awful business if you ask me.

So, I can't see Zack Ryder's treatment as fair in any regard, myself.

[talonmalon333]

From everything that I've read about the situation, that's absolutely not the case. Ryder was really popular with the fans, but neither Vince nor the writers were trying to give him a push in favor of other stars that they thought would be much better, so they never even gave him a chance to begin with. They made him the butt of joke matches and basically turned him into a jobber in order to deflate any momentum that he was gaining. This was before any Twitter comments that he made, by which time he had every right to be upset with how he was treated.

Additionally, since you bring up Daniel Bryan, you are aware that Vince pretty much tried to do the same thing with him, right? He was gaining a lot of popularity with the fans, but Vince didn't really want to give him a push. To avoid backlash, though, they had him get some time in the spotlight by defeating Cena at Summerslam, but then promptly gave the title to Orton by having him cash in his MITB. Then they had Bryan feud with Orton, win his first title match with him, but promotly lose the next, which ended the feud.

And then that big Wrestlemania win last year? That wasn't planned. At least not until the last minute. Vince and the writers wanted Bautista to go one-on-one with Orton for the title, and didn't even include Bryan in the Royal Rumble. This time the fans weren't having any if it, and the backlash was huge, so they finally decided to insert Bryan into the match, make it a triple-threat, and have him win the title like he deserved, but only after months of constant pushing by the fans. Basically, WWE had a clear star on their hands and they were actively trying to undermine their own talent rather than actually listening to both casual and hardcore fans alike. They basically denied their main consumer what they wanted and couldn't take a hint for months on end. That's....pretty awful business if you ask me.

So, I can't see Zack Ryder's treatment as fair in any regard, myself.

Yeah, everyone wanted Daniel Bryan to be the star, but Vince instead put Bautista into the Royal Rumble and had him win despite being so far past his prime, and only changed when the backlash got too extreme. A similar thing happened this year. Daniel Bryan made a big appearance in the Royal Rumble, but got eliminated early and Roman Reigns won and was set to become the champ at WrestleMania. It was only after the backlash once again proved to be too enormous, that Vince scrapped that plan and decided, literally a few days before Wrestlemania, to have Seth Rollins cash in at the event and become the champ instead.

In general, Vince hates when wrestlers get over without him selecting them as the stars. It's still like that today. Especially with Cesaro, one of the best technical wrestlers in a long time, and who has a big fanbase, but got buried by Big Show recently. Every fan wanted to see Cesaro become big, but Vince flat out said he doesn't have what it takes. He alone thinks that. Just as he thinks Daniel Bryan is a "B+ player".

Meanwhile, he selected Roman Reigns to be the future of WWE, a guy with maybe five wrestling moves, a finisher that's all style and no substance, and poor mic skills.

[talonmalon333]

Does anyone remember the Great Khali?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I do. He....wasn't a good wrestler, to say the least. Truth be told, I felt kind of bad for him, though. That constant booing can't be good for one's self-esteem.

[talonmalon333]

I agree. He's really just another guy who Vince loved because of his size. Vince will push the big guys no matter their skills, or lack thereof.

Still, I do feel bad about the booing. I know WWE needs to learn to listen to its fans at some point in its life, but the fans can really be mean spirited when they don't like someone. Take Big Show. I know he's just another giant who can't wrestle and that he shouldn't be in title matches these days, but it's too harsh and too real when the audience chants "Please retire" at him.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Yeah, it pegs me more as Vince's fault for pissing off fans by trying to push these guys over more talented wrestlers.

That said, WWE fans can be insanely harsh and cruel. Booing is part of the business, but some of the derogatory terms both at shows and among online commenters just go too far, and people seem to forget that these are real human beings in front of them.

[talonmalon333]

How do you feel about the audience chanting for wrestlers that aren't wrestling during matches?

To make that question more clear, I'll take an example from this past Royal Rumble. Roman Reigns was fighting Kane and Big Show, and the audience was chanting "We want Bryan".

[Spark Of Spirit]

How do you feel about the audience chanting for wrestlers that aren't wrestling during matches?

Gooooooooldberg. Gooooooooldberg. Gooooooooldberg.

In all seriousness, I was once at a Smackdown years ago where Rhyno and Tommy Dreamer where wrestling a dark match and people were booing. They were crazy for doing it, as it was a very entertaining match but it wasn't flashy at all. But that's just the thing about where I live, there are a lot of hateful people here.

[talonmalon333]

I'll just post my thoughts on the current state of SmackDown, because you guys are boring.

It's basically the leftovers show for Raw. WWE puts everything important onto Raw, all the notable matches and story progression. SmackDown has totally become the B show, two hours of filler and recycled matches. With the way that ratings are so low, it almost makes one wonder if WWE is just going to cut SmackDown once ratings get too low.

This past SmackDown was noteworthy in that it marked the debut of Tyler Breeze, a veteran from NXT. That's a very good thing. It not only brought up a wrestler who I began to fear would never get promoted, but it also gave some purpose to SmackDown. It was the only moment in ages where something important happened on SmackDown. Beyond that, SmackDown honestly isn't necessary to watch, and is barely worth it. I watch really watch it because I do it with friends. I wouldn't need to watch it on my own, and never feel bad when I miss an episode.

WWE can do one of two things now. One idea is that they separate the two again. Give SmackDown its own look again, and some separating of the wrestlers. They don't even necessarily need to do another draft. Just have a set of wrestlers that are associated with Raw, and a set of wrestlers that are associated with SmackDown. Crossover can happen, but it's not always the same wrestlers on both shows, nor is it a big deal when you see someone hop between shows. This would easily make it more important. Maybe even let the US belt be featured more in Raw and the IC belt featured more in SmackDown, which I think was Daniel Bryan's idea earlier this year before he stopped wrestling. That way, having two secondary belts would feel like it has more of a purpose.

Another idea is to simply treat SmackDown like a continuation of Raw. WWE likely wants us to think this is what it currently is. But, the fact is, nothing noteworthy happens on SmackDown. But, in this scenario, things that happened in Raw would be continued in SmackDown. It wouldn't just be that we see a big event happen in Raw and then have to wait until the next Raw to find out what happens next. It would be more like "That's what happened in Raw. Tune into SmackDown to see what happens next".

SmackDown will be moving back to USA Network next year. That will be a good opportunity to make it worth watching again.