Battle Shonen Stuff

[Spark Of Spirit]

I didn't say he should drop Gon, just that if he did I wouldn't really care.  But that might also be because, well, he found his dad which was the goal of the story. What else does he have to go on now? But yes, you're right that he did affect all those characters with his incessant optimism (which I admit is his best quality) and he does add a lot to the series. I've just never been compelled much by him outside of his random speeches and much prefer other characters. You're right though, I'm underestimating his importance to the story and why he became the way he did.

There are some good examples of cliches working well, though. MxO's main character was a pretty average guy with no real skills, but he was written as a character first and not to be cool which is probably why it has a cult following. Same with stuff like Psyren or Enigma where the main characters don't stick out, but they are written as characters that fit into the plot and drive it forward and they are also well-liked even if not overly succcessful.

[gunswordfist]

I know it's not anime but I remember thinking Korra's writers could learn a thing or two from Yusuke. I suspect they ended up giving her no character development unintentionally due to them wanting her being a hot head to be entertaining. Togashi figured out how to make Yusuke still Yusuke at his core (for example, he still picked fights all the way up until he faced Yomi) while giving him plenty of character development. Meanwhile, the Korra staff has her basically running in circles with her development. They haven't figured out how to keep her interesting without stifling her growth.

[Grave]

Or in Bleach, does Ichigo need to have his generic anger? Does it add anything to the story? Has it ever actually affected anything in the plot? If it doesn't affect what happens in the story at all then why is it a trait that he has in the first place? If every aspect of a character's personality doesn't affect the story in some meaningful way then either the story or the character isn't developed enough, in my opinion.

It's just food for thought. I like stories a lot, but there are certain cliches that simply don't work if you don't know how to use them.

That was actually touched on in the story itself (what little story there actually is), but during the crappiest arc of all (fullbringer).

I actually think Ichigo is a solid protagonist. The group on the other hand is the problem. They've become completely overshadowed by the shinigami's to the point where you can remove them entirely and it wouldn't even matter. I probably wouldn't say Ichigo's as good as Yusuke, but he's definitely a solid protagonist. Probably the better one of the big 3, at least to what I prefer.

As far as drive goes... Beats me. I'd probably take anything besides the "I have to protect my friends" theme.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

There's a bunch I could say about the problems with character development in most modern shrunken manga, but in true lazy fashion I'll just steal the words of someone else from this AnJ article:

Equally impressive is how Joe's wildness is handled. Too often in stories do antagonists or "bad" characters do a 180 in their personality under the guise of "character development." [sarcasm]After all, dynamic characters are better than static characters! That's what my English teacher said![/sarcasm] This shit pisses me off to no end. It's all about execution. There's no point in having a character be dynamic if you've essentially reduced him to two polar opposites with no in-between such that the effect is indistinguishable from having two separate flat/static characters. Joe starts off as a wild self-centered hooligan who's not above breaking two or three rules as long as he wins in the end. If Kajiwara and Chiba were poor story-tellers, they'd follow the rule of more change = better characters, and de-fang Joe into a self-less goody two-shoes. It'd make no internal-logical sense for such a deformed Joe to be so stubbornly determined about a self-destructive showdown with Mendoza. Thankfully, Kajiwara and Chiba wisely chose not to cut down on his wildness but merely redirect it.

Pretty much this is how you're supposed to handle character development. I can't stand how that has devolved into beating some 1-dimensional ass-hole in a fight will suddenly make them change their views on the world entirely and will somehow make them less ass-hole-ish.

This is why it baffles me that shit like Nary to gets praised for character development by people who clearly don't know any better.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Also, most tend to stick "character development" usually at the tail-end of some long, boring fight. You can have character development in other places, you know. We just rarely see it as much.

[Rynnec]

Pretty much this is how you're supposed to handle character development. I can't stand how that has devolved into beating some 1-dimensional ass-hole in a fight will suddenly make them change their views on the world entirely and will somehow make them less ass-hole-ish.

I immediately thought of Gaara and his 180 personality shift when I read this.

[gunswordfist]

Oh, Naruto.

[Spark Of Spirit]

Or like everyone in Soul Society in Bleach after Aizen's betrayal.

"Oh, now Ichigo = good!"

[Rynnec]

Yet another reason why 90% of the Soul Society characters are some of the most overrated characters in the history of shounen.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I just wanted to see if I could rank my top 20 favorite story arcs from battle shounen anime/manga. For this reason I have left out "pure" sports series, with the exception of boxing since it can count; as well as more comedic manga/anime like GTO or Shounan Junai Gumi; or battle of wits thrillers like Death Note; or just general slice of life like Bakuman; otherwise this would become a top 50. For the sake of simplicity I'm only doing straight up battle shounen series for this list, though I may attempt incorporating any shounen into the mix later on. This is all based on what I consider to be the best from what I've watched and read:

20. Chimera Ant (Hunter X Hunter)
19. Road to the Japanese Championship (Hajime no Ippo)
18. 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi (Dragon Ball)
17. D-Reaper (Digimon Tamers)
16. Battle Tendency (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)
15. Baroque Works (One Piece)
14. Enies Lobby (One Piece)
13. Namek (Dragon Ball)
12. King Piccolo (Dragon Ball)
11. Revenge (Rurouni Kenshin)
10. Dark Tournament (Yu Yu Hakusho)
09. Jose Mendoza (Ashita no Joe)
08. Marineford (One Piece)
07. Saiyan (Dragon Ball)
06. Red Ribbon Army (Dragon Ball)
05. York New City (Hunter X Hunter)
04. Kyoto (Rurouni Kenshin)
03. Remembrance/Trust and Betrayal (Rurouni Kenshin)
02. Chapter Black (Yu Yu Hakusho)
01. Everything from the Rikiishi arc to the Carlos Rivera arc (Ashita no Joe)

Also, for the record, I'm not sure if Gundam 0080 counts as a shounen or not (I've heard differing claims), and even then I don't consider it a pure battle shounen like these other contenders, hence why I didn't rank it.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Even limiting it to just battle shounen series, that was a really hard list to make and I'm reLly not that pleased with it. Later on I'll need to re-evaluate it and even extend it. If I were to include all shounen in general, I could even potentially make a top 100 list since there are A LOT of great story arcs out there when I stop to think about it.

[gunswordfist]

Except for no. 1, in no particular order:

Baki - Maximum Tournament
Hunter X Hunter - Hunter Exam
Hunter X Hunter - York New City
Rurouni Kenshin - Rememberance
Rurouni Kenshin - Kyoto
YYH - Spirit Detective
YYH - Genkai's Tournament
YYH - Rescue Yukina
Fist Of The Northstar - Shin arc
Fist Of The Northstar - Souther arc (Now this is how you do a short arc.)
DBK - Saiyan
DBK - Cell/Android
DBK - Namek/Frieza
Yu yu Hakusho - Saint Beasts
Afro Samurai - Season 1?
Afro Samurai - Resurrection
Guyver - OVA Disc 1
Rurouni Kenshin - Tokyo
Rurouni Kenshin Jinchu
1. Yu yu Hakusho - Dark Tournament

I have yet to finish rewatching Chapter Black and I've missed half of two episodes, I believe. So that's why it's not listed. Either way, Dark Tournament is my favorite. It explores what makes Yusuke (my favorite anime character) and Genkai tick more than any other arc. Yusuke matures more here than in any other saga and you can't even argue that Genkai has a deeper arc than this one. It's also has a good amount of new characters and no slow down in the action, which can be epic and well written. I think many people who even defend this arc from those who claim it's just a generic tournament arc refuse to say it's worthy of 10 out of 10 because: 1. Chapter Black exists 2. It's a tournament arc. Oh, the irony! Anyway, I love this arc and I had fun watching all of it uncut. It has everything you can want from a battle shonen arc and more.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Since we were on the subject today, I thought I might as well list my top 5 favorite Shounen Jump manga:

1. Rurouni Kenshin- Personally I think that it's latter 3 arcs are unrivaled in terms of story-telling, and it's characters are as well-written as any WSJ manga. The Remembrance arc in particular is one of the greatest story arcs of all time, IMO.

2. Death Note- This is just extreme bias, on my part, but it was the first manga that I ever read.

3. Dragon Ball- Sure, Dr. Slump is probably better, and I plan to read that series someday, but I still find DB to be an indisputable classic. And yes, the Cell saga is it's weak point, but the Buu saga makes up for it. Akira Toriyama can say what he wants about its own work, but it should be noted that he has largely forgotten a lot of details about DB since he's distanced himself so much from it since it's completion, so you have to take what he says with a grain of salt.

4. Slam Dunk- Every modern sports manga has cribbed from this one's formula in some way, but while this one does follow a formula, Inoue Takehiko knows how to keep his matches unpredictable, and also knows how to keep you invested in the story. He would later go on to write more character-driven Seinen manga like Vagabond and REAL, but his first major work still has much merit, and it has possibly the most legendary final match in any sports manga (from what I hear, Kuroko no Basket has tried to reciprocate the intensity and heart of that particular match, and has failed miserably at if, with the current match that's going on in the series).

5. Hunter X Hunter- It wouldn't feel right to not include a Togashi manga on here. The guy is almost a master when it comes to stories and characters. By all means he SHOULD be #1 on this list, but his manga do unfortunately have their detractors. Still, the pros definitely far outweigh the cons, and HXH is his best manga, at least so far (it's still currently running, of course). And yes, since his anime adaptations are usually marked improvements over his already great stories, I find the YYH anime to be the best incarnation of any of his works, but when it comes to manga, I have to give the edge to HXH, myself.

There are plenty of other great WSJ manga, and some that I'm currently in the process of reading like JoJo, but in terms of personal opinion, I firmly believe that those 5 series are the strongest Jump manga that I've read, by far.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Alright, now I'll just rank my top favorite battle shounen manga in general:

1. Ashita no Joe
2. Rurouni Kenshin
3. Dragon Ball
4. Hunter X Hunter
5. Shounan Junai Gumi (It has lots of fighting in it so it counts! Fuck you!)

And then my favorite battle shounen anime:

1. Yu Yu Hakusho
2. Ashita no Joe 2
3. Rurouni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal
4. Hunter X Hunter (1999)
5. Digimon Tamers
6. Zoids: Chaotic Century/Guardian Force
7. Dragon Ball
8. Ashita no Joe
9. Digimon Adventure
10. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure

[LumRanmaYasha]

Favorite Battle Shonen Manga:

1. Ashita no Joe
2. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
    - Part 6: Stone Ocean
    - Part 4: Diamond Is Unbreakable
    - Part 5: Vento Aureo
    - Part 3: Stardust Crusaders
    - Part 2: Battle Tendency (by itself I'd rank this lower than RK, DB, HXH, and OP)
3. Rurouni Kenshin
4. Dragon Ball
5. One Piece
6. Hunter X Hunter
7. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo (well, it's a parody of battle shonen manga, so I'll count it)
8. Ranma 1/2 (Wacky martial arts is 1/2 the premise. I'm counting it.)
9. Astro Boy
10. Animal Land

As for Anime:

1. Ashita no Joe 2
2. Dragon Ball
3. Yu Yu Hakusho
4. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo
5. Ranma 1/2
6. Rurouni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal
7. Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket (I'm unsure if this fits, but screw it, I'm counting it anyway)
8. Hunter X Hunter (1999)
9. Hunter X Hunter (2011)
10. InuYasha: The Final Act