Unpopular Opinions You Hold About Animation

[gunswordfist]

I enjoyed Gohan and Future Trunks, but not much else. What they did to Tenshinhan was just mean to DB fans.

At least Tien got to hurt Cell, unlike Krillin, Piccolo, or Yamcha.

And people whine about there being too many Super Saiyans in the Cell saga (OMG! 4! With 3 being established characters and 1 being a really interesting one that got developed) If you want to watch every member of a group be too weak to really do anything, excluding the main character, then go watch Bleach. Not directing this at you but I never understand why people were upset because by the # of Super Saiyans in that arc.

I enjoyed Gohan and Future Trunks, but not much else. What they did to Tenshinhan was just mean to DB fans.

Funny how SS2 Gohan and Future Trunks were my favorite characters as a kid. I love the Cell saga.

[gunswordfist]

I enjoyed Gohan and Future Trunks, but not much else. What they did to Tenshinhan was just mean to DB fans.

At least Tien got to hurt Cell, unlike Krillin, Piccolo, or Yamcha.

Yeah, what they did to the non-Saiyan characters after Frieza still annoys me now. Krillin's Ki-enzan (or Destructo Disk.. whatever you prefer) could have sliced through every single character and enemy up to Cell... despite him being far less powerful. Suddenly this move doesn't work which throws the whole "power of chi energy" thing that Toriyama built up with the Namek arc (it was how Vegeta got stronger, after all) and makes it completely useless.

Then again, I don't like how over reliant on Super Saiyans everything became when they're supposed to be rare. Making Vegeta one completely ruined the point of his growth, too.

The what now?!

[Spark Of Spirit]

Bleach started that off in the first arc, though. Ichigo is always the only character worth anything.

The problem was that none of the Super Saiyan characters really earned the complete jump in strength. Gohan and Krillin were always around the same strength, even around Namek when they brought to around Zarbon's strength, and him getting relegated to useless because ANDROIDS KNOW EVERYTHING was lame. The same with Piccolo who was as strong as Frieza's second form to suddenly not even be able to harm Cell was insulting.

Yamcha, Tien, and Chaozu I can deal with since they sort of dropped out after Namek (even though fillers made them to be around Ginyu Force strength), but Krillin and Piccolo were major characters that were no push overs (overplayed Krillin jokes aside, he's the strongest human in the whole series) despite overwhelming odds. Seeing them made useless not only made no sense, but it was lazy from a character development standpoint.

[Spark Of Spirit]

I enjoyed Gohan and Future Trunks, but not much else. What they did to Tenshinhan was just mean to DB fans.

At least Tien got to hurt Cell, unlike Krillin, Piccolo, or Yamcha.

Yeah, what they did to the non-Saiyan characters after Frieza still annoys me now. Krillin's Ki-enzan (or Destructo Disk.. whatever you prefer) could have sliced through every single character and enemy up to Cell... despite him being far less powerful. Suddenly this move doesn't work which throws the whole "power of chi energy" thing that Toriyama built up with the Namek arc (it was how Vegeta got stronger, after all) and makes it completely useless.

Then again, I don't like how over reliant on Super Saiyans everything became when they're supposed to be rare. Making Vegeta one completely ruined the point of his growth, too.

The what now?!

Everyone in the Dragon Ball series who does not embrace their chi (or spirit) energy never grow stronger after a certain point. That's the whole reason Vegeta turned on Frieza since he had finally found a way to grow beyond his limits after seeing how Goku, Krillin, and Gohan did it. It's why everyone was surprised he could beat all of Frieza's men like that. Heck, it's only through training with Roshi and learning the Kamehameha that Goku got any stronger. If he stayed in the forest he would be exactly as weak as Raditz thought he was.

[gunswordfist]

I still think the scene where Future Trunks first appears and cuts Frieza in half is one of the most badass things ever.

Seeing that for the first time is one of my favorite Toonami moments.

Loved watching Trunks slice Frieza into little pieces and then blow away the floating pieces in the uncut version. Damn good way to avenge his grandfather.

[Rynnec]

The what now?!

I think Spark is referring to the whole "sensing energy" thing that made the scouter's obsolete. Not sure what that has to do with the Destructo Disk though.

Bleach started that off in the first arc, though. Ichigo is always the only character worth anything.

Not quite, but that's for another time.

The problem was that none of the Super Saiyan characters really earned the complete jump in strength. Gohan and Krillin were always around the same strength, even around Namek when they brought to around Zarbon's strength, and him getting relegated to useless because ANDROIDS KNOW EVERYTHING was lame. The same with Piccolo who was as strong as Frieza's second form to suddenly not even be able to harm Cell was insulting.

I thought that Piccolo could defeat Cell, it's just that Cell was more powerful than he expected, and by the time he adjusted, Cell fled the scene?

Yamcha, Tien, and Chaozu I can deal with since they sort of dropped out after Namek (even though fillers made them to be around Ginyu Force strength), but Krillin and Piccolo were major characters that were no push overs (overplayed Krillin jokes aside, he's the strongest human in the whole series) despite overwhelming odds. Seeing them made useless not only made no sense, but it was lazy from a character development standpoint.

I think a large part of that is because neither Piccolo or Krillin really had any opportunity to show their skills. Imperfect Cell alway avoided direct fights with the Z fighters, and Imperfect Cell's second form was too powerful to have Krillin do any good against him. Piccolo possibly could've been a match for Cell's second form, but he was too worn out from his battle with 17 to be too effective.

[gunswordfist]

Vegeta becoming a Super Saiyan made sense because of his long-time rivalry with Goku. Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan in the ALTERNATE timeline made sense because he needed to, as did Trunks becoming SS after his master Gohan's death. That said, Gohan should NOT have needed to become SS in the proper timeline. I thought it was incredibly stupid of Goku forcing his own son to be the one to defeat Cell, when he probably just could have done it himself with more training or some good strategy or some shit like that. Hell, it would have even been a better end to the arc if Goku ended up taking out Cell when he sacrificed himself to do so, except without Gohan having to be a Super Saiyan and then screwing up in order for him to have to do that. It would have made his self sacrifice seem like a much more desperate thing instead of being like a joke which is what it basically turned out to be since Cell just immediately regenerated himself, anyways.

I liked it better when you liked the ending of the Cell saga with how Goku stayed dead and let his son be his successor.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The what now?!

I think Spark is referring to the whole "sensing energy" thing that made the scouter's obsolete. Not sure what that has to do with the Destructo Disk though.

Remember back when Raditz showed up? Remember when he read Goku's power level with the Kamehameha and Piccolo's with his attack they both tripled and quadrupled in strength? That was because they focused their energy and spirit into one channeled attack. When Vegeta did it against Goku it was useless because it only used force, while Goku had the Kaio Ken, his own spirit energy, and the planet on his side. Vegeta was stronger than Goku in the entire fight, but it was because of his techniques and mastery of spirit energy that he beat Vegeta with his friends. He did not win on strength, and Vegeta couldn't understand it until he studied it himself.

Anyway, that tangent aside, the Destructo Disk is probably the strongest, but slowest, spirit attack in the series. Being that it was the only one that would have actually killed Nappa when none of the others came close to even hurting him. It even sliced Frieza's tail right off. So making possibly the best technique in the series that didn't rely purely on brute strength useless was a disappointment. And that it came from the "joke character" made it all the better.

The problem was that none of the Super Saiyan characters really earned the complete jump in strength. Gohan and Krillin were always around the same strength, even around Namek when they brought to around Zarbon's strength, and him getting relegated to useless because ANDROIDS KNOW EVERYTHING was lame. The same with Piccolo who was as strong as Frieza's second form to suddenly not even be able to harm Cell was insulting.

I thought that Piccolo could defeat Cell, it's just that Cell was more powerful than he expected, and by the time he adjusted, Cell fled the scene?

I'd like to say I know the answer, but there's so much useless dialogue in this arc that it's hard to parse through. 

Yamcha, Tien, and Chaozu I can deal with since they sort of dropped out after Namek (even though fillers made them to be around Ginyu Force strength), but Krillin and Piccolo were major characters that were no push overs (overplayed Krillin jokes aside, he's the strongest human in the whole series) despite overwhelming odds. Seeing them made useless not only made no sense, but it was lazy from a character development standpoint.

I think a large part of that is because neither Piccolo or Krillin really had any opportunity to show their skills. Imperfect Cell alway avoided direct fights with the Z fighters, and Imperfect Cell's second form was too powerful to have Krillin do any good against him. Piccolo possibly could've been a match for Cell's second form, but he was too worn out from his battle with 17 to be too effective.

That's what I mean though, the gaps in strength in this series were just too strange and pointlessly wide because Toriyama had to make everything stacked against Super Saiyans and not on a normal scale. It basically just brought the fights into being one-sided slug-fights that were rather boring to watch, Future Trunks' first appearances aside.

[gunswordfist]

Bleach started that off in the first arc, though. Ichigo is always the only character worth anything.

The problem was that none of the Super Saiyan characters really earned the complete jump in strength. Gohan and Krillin were always around the same strength, even around Namek when they brought to around Zarbon's strength, and him getting relegated to useless because ANDROIDS KNOW EVERYTHING was lame. The same with Piccolo who was as strong as Frieza's second form to suddenly not even be able to harm Cell was insulting.

Yamcha, Tien, and Chaozu I can deal with since they sort of dropped out after Namek (even though fillers made them to be around Ginyu Force strength), but Krillin and Piccolo were major characters that were no push overs (overplayed Krillin jokes aside, he's the strongest human in the whole series) despite overwhelming odds. Seeing them made useless not only made no sense, but it was lazy from a character development standpoint.

What?

Anyway, I was actually impressed with how strong Piccolo was after rewatching some of the arc in Kai. I completely forgot he was stronger than Gero and got stronger than Goku was at Super Saiyan when he fought Frieza. That's a ridiculous jump in power.

But the long buildup to him finally refusing with Kami...and then getting his butt kicked by Imperfect Cell is understandably insulting. Once I think about Piccolo is the only non-Saiyan who had an argument for how he should have been stronger but THAT'S IT. And even then, fusing with the much weaker Kami and becoming much stronger is lunacy anyway.

All the humans had nothing to suggest that they could compete with the villains of the Cell/Android saga. Sure Krillin was coming along fine on Namek but this is comparing him to Gohan we are talking about. Gohan's hidden strength has been built up well throughout the series. I don't see how Krillin could train or anything and could be reasonably considered to be a match for even that clown Android.

So that's why have all the Super Saiyans made sense. They had (more) believable reasons for competing with the bad guys. The humans, not at all. And that does suck. This is one of the reasons why the show overstayed its welcome after the Cell saga. The Saiyans left every good guy in their dust.

[Spark Of Spirit]

The androids were programmed to know everything about the characters until they left for Namek, so they knew exactly how strong they would all be except the Super Saiyan characters. It was just a kind of lazy way to use the Super Saiyans, though.

Well, from what everyone had said, Krillan might have been around Frieza's strength by the end of the series. Seeing that Frieza was supposed to be the strongest being in the universe (known universe, yes) he should probably have not been such a pushover to Cell Jr. or Babidi's lackeys, even if he couldn't compete with Cell or Buu.

[Nel_Annette]

Last week I got all 5 seasons of Dragonball on DVD. I remember it being a charming show when it aired and always wanted to see it again. Despite my fond childhood memories of DBZ, I will not be getting it on DVD. You guys already gave about 4 pages on why.  That said, I still like Faulconer's soundtrack and Cell's character design.

And GT... fuck GT. I remember when that was first getting released and my friends and I were really excited for it. Biggest disappointment ever. I think what finally did it for me was when Goku off-handedly remarked that the mook he was fighting was stronger than Majin Buu. Like it's not a big deal. Sweet-merciful fuck, how would that guy breathe without destroying the planet he's on, let alone fight Goku at that strength?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I liked it better when you liked the ending of the Cell saga with how Goku stayed dead and let his son be his successor.

I still stand by that opinion that it would have been a great ending to the arc to have Goku die for good and have Gohan be his successor. In this case I'm saying that when I think about it, I think that Goku's self-sacrifice should have ended up working, with him transporting himself along with Cell to a different location just as Cell was about to self-destruct. Gohan wouldn't need to be a Super Saiyan by that point in time, but it could have been made that he would receive more training from Piccolo and such to become Earth's next big defender to replace Goku, and if an evil great enough forced him to, then he could become a Super Saiyan when necessary (just like how Goku did against Frieza).

Then again, the whole transformation into a Super Saiyan was never really indicated to have to do with strength or training. Up until the Cell arc, it had to do with a Saiyan falling into a an enraged emotional state so deep that it forced the transformation on them. That said, the Buu arc pretty much destroyed that logic once Goten and Trunks could easily transform into Super Saiyans at the ages of 7 and 8, respectively.

[Spark Of Spirit]

And one of them after pouting after his mommy scolded him.

It's kind of why I preferred my idea of Super Saiyan literally being a once in a lifetime achievement that could never be used again to the way Toriyama just made the legend into a common power up that was even devalued further by having levels.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Last week I got all 5 seasons of Dragonball on DVD. I remember it being a charming show when it aired and always wanted to see it again.

That's definitely a good buy. Extremely cheap and lazy animation aside (thanks to Toei's notoriously low budget for their productions back then), the show works great on so many levels. Its clear that everyone working on it had such a passion for Toriyama's manga and the result was a really fun and enjoyable adventure show with some really good fights thrown in the mix as well.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

And one of them after pouting after his mommy scolded him.

It's kind of why I preferred my idea of Super Saiyan literally being a once in a lifetime achievement that could never be used again to the way Toriyama just made the legend into a common power up that was even devalued further by having levels.

I can somewhat agree with that. I wouldn't necessarily limit it to once in a life-time, but I do think that it should have been something that couldn't possibly be controlled no matter how much training was put into becoming stronger. I feel like it should have been an unpredictable response for select Saiyans that could only be triggered under deep emotional states (mostly rage, of course), and it also should have been far more taxing to be in that form, creating for more desperation in that no character could stay as a Super Saiyan for too long. To me, that would have been the perfect use of that form. In that regard, the Saiyan characters couldn't rely on that transformation which would force them to have to allow the human characters to play their part in grand fights as well, and then they wouldn't become so damn useless like they did in the Cell and Buu arcs.