Kill la Kill

[Foggle]

I haven't seen (nor heard of) Hot Fuzz

YE GODS MATE, YOU MUST

Well, actually, since the core of comparison is that the series, despite being a parody of other anime, is a loving parody of which that subverts expectations and is a superior series in that genre for it, then yes, I agree whole-heartedly, much like how Batman: The Brave and the Bold is a better action/superhero cartoon than others of it's kind despite it's campiness, and how Jojo and Bobobo are better battle/adventure shonen than others despite being incredibly over the top, tongue in cheek, and ridiculous.

Off the top of my head I can't think of many examples, myself, unless Tenshinhan and Vegeta count. 

Same. But, I have not watched many battle shounen past the earliest episodes.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Same. But, I have not watched many battle shounen past the earliest episodes.

And I've watched/read a plethora of battle shonen. 

I mean, I guess I can add Sauske and maayybbeee Grimmjow to the list, but I'm tapped out on examples after that.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Off the top of my head I can't think of many examples, myself, unless Tenshinhan and Vegeta count. 

I'm assuming that Foggle meant villains that go through the same things that heroes do, while still remaining villains, or people who aren't villains who eventually become villains. So, either he meant something else entirely, or we're not on the same page, here.

Tenshinhan and Vegeta are villains who became heroes, so that's the complete opposite scenario.

If you want examples, just look at stuff you've already read/watched:

Yu Yu Hakusho has both Younger Toguro and Sensui, both of whom were either heroes or at least not real villains, and they went through heroic journeys, yet still ended up walking down the path of villainy.

The character from this week's episode clearly wasn't a true villain when he fought Lady Satsuki, but submitted his allegiance to her after he was defeated by her.

If Foggle was talking about how he initially got defeated and then made sacrifices to return for a victory, that's been done before as well. Raven, from Zoids, is a character who was defeated by the protagonist and had an emotional journey of his own before coming back to defeat him, while still remaining a villain up to that point.

Whichever specific element of the "villain going through a hero's journey" that Foggle is referring to, it has been done before (if he specifies which aspect he's talking about, I can probably provide more examples). Once again, I'm not saying that it wasn't done well, here, but I'm just saying that it's certainly not what I would call a subversion of the genre.

[LumRanmaYasha]

If Foggle was talking about how he initially got defeated and then made sacrifices to return for a victory, that's been done before as well. Raven, from Zoids, is a character who was defeated by the protagonist and had an emotional journey of his own before coming back to defeat him, while still remaining a villain up to that point.

This is what I interpreted, though I should have clarified I meant Tenshinhan as an example within the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc and that arc alone, and Vegeta in only the Namek saga, not the series as a whole. 

I haven't seen many characters like Raven (I also have never watched Zoids besides that one episode I watched for the Greatest Animated TV series tournament,  ), or at least I cannot think of them at the moment, so that's why Sanageyama felt refreshing to me as an antagonist in this episode. I guess you just have watched/read more shonen then me, is all. 

[Foggle]

I actually just meant that it was a subversion of the typical hero's journey, since it did the same thing using a villain.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Not really, I'm pretty sure you have seen more. I just happen to have seen a few that you haven't gotten around to, yet.

That said, I don't recall Tenshinhan ever having gotten defeated by Goku before he had his big face turn (at which point he no longer counted as a villain), so he never had a comeback victory.

You could maybe count Vegeta in the Majin Buu saga, in which he temporarily became a villain again and defeated Goku, but really it's more like they stopped their fight and Vegeta took a cheap shot at him from behind, rather than actually beating him properly.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I actually just meant that it was a subversion of the typical hero's journey, since it did the same thing using a villain.

So, basically you mean that you're talking about a villain's journey? As in, how they go through their own path of development just like a hero does, except for the fact that they are not heroes? If so, then I've got plenty of examples of that **cracks knuckles**:

Younger Toguro (Yu Yu Hakusho)
Sensui (Yu Yu Hakusho)
Jairo (Hunter X Hunter)
Meruem (Hunter X Hunter)
The Phantom Troupe (Hunter X Hunter)

**Togashi loves these types of villains**

Shishio (Rurouni Kenshin)
Aoshi (Rurouni Kenshin)
Enishi (Rurouni Kenshin)
Raven (Zoids)
Mashiba (Hajime no Ippo)
Sawamura (Hajime no Ippo)
Some guy from FMP! Who I can't name since it's a spoiler
A bunch of characters from Naoki Urasawa's manga series' (though, to be fair, these are seinen)

I could keep going on, but maybe not all of those characters specifically match what you were talking about. However, if by subversion you just meant villains that go on a journey of some sort (at least from a character development standpoint), then there are tons of examples of that which I can think of. Even Naruto has characters like that (they aren't done well, but they are still that same type of character which I believe you are referring to).

[LumRanmaYasha]

Not really, I'm pretty sure you have seen more. I just happen to have seen a few that you haven't gotten around to, yet.

That said, I don't recall Tenshinhan ever having gotten defeated by Goku before he had his big face turn (at which point he no longer counted as a villain), so he never had a comeback victory.

You could maybe count Vegeta in the Majin Buu saga, in which he temporarily became a villain again and defeated Goku, but really it's more like they stopped their fight and Vegeta took a cheap shot at him from behind, rather than actually beating him properly.

He didn't get defeated my Goku, but it was implied that Jackie Chun could have defeated him and chose not to, and his conversation with him later on why provoked his moral dilemma on following Shen's teachings which eventually boiled to a point in his fight with Goku. That's not a direct comparison/example, but I thought of it as similar.

I still consider Vegeta somewhat of a villain in the Namek saga, so I counted his getting beaten by Zarbon, Recoome, and Freeza, and then bouncing back and getting stronger as similar to the hero's journey. Granted, it's again not a direct comparison, so ymmw I suppose. 

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I still consider Vegeta somewhat of a villain in the Namek saga, so I counted his getting beaten by Zarbon, Recoome, and Freeza, and then bouncing back and getting stronger as similar to the hero's journey. Granted, it's again not a direct comparison, so ymmw I suppose. 

I didn't think about that, but you're right, that could be considered a villain going through a hero's journey, with Vegeta overcoming his obstacles to achieve his goal (even if the doesn't actually achieve it since Frieza still ends up killing him).

[Foggle]

This show only gets better with every passing week. http://animationrevelation.com/readables/?p=2150

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Good write-up again, this week. I'm enjoying this show as well, but I have to admit that I'm that one guy who doesn't really feel anything yet from the genuinely dramatic moments. I don't mean the parts that are clearly parodied of other shounen, but more-so the moments that are made to make you feel something for the characters. In that regard, they are executed well, but I still don't have quite enough of an investment in this world and its characters to really feel that much for them yet. As a comedy, though, the series has worked out pretty well for me, so far.

And, at the risk of getting lashed out at on this thread, I think part of the reason is because certain portions of other shounen series that I've seen (like some scenes in One Piece, for example) have already done the zany comedy mixed with genuine drama, and may have even done it a bit better in some instances. I'm by no means saying that series like that are better on the whole, as stuff like OP has plenty of pacing problems and can have plenty of long-winded arcs that are boring as fuck, but as an in the moment sort of thing, I think I've personally seen some shounen that have made their emotional moments feel more effective for me.

Anyways, I'm just expressing my honest opinion, here, which is always the best way to generate discussion (it'd be boring if everyone agreed completely on every single aspect of a show, after all), so take that with a grain of salt. Overall, I have still enjoyed this show more than TTGL, and with the exception of episode 5 (which I didn't much care for, myself), every other episode has been good so far, IMO. It's easily the best anime running this season, as far as I can tell. To be fair, though, The only other anime that I've actually been watching are sub-par adaptations of good sports manga, so that's not a whole lot to go on, but at the same time there isn't that much this season aside from this series that really managed to catch my interest.

[LumRanmaYasha]

IMO. It's easily the best anime running this season, as far as I can tell. To be fair, though, The only other anime that I've actually been watching are sub-par adaptations of good sports manga, so that's not a whole lot to go on, but at the same time there isn't that much this season aside from this series that really managed to catch my interest.

Watch Samurai Flamenco, Gundam Build Fighters, and catch up on Magi. 

As for the dramatic moments, I dunno, I'm feeling them. I'm not crying or anything from them, but they come across as good character moments and interactions, and as a guy who mostly gets into shows because of characters and story it's working well for me. I agree that other series (KLK is seinin, I think, so as an example The Slayers trilogy of shows comes to mind) have mixed comedy and drama well before and that's nothing new, but Kill la Kill's over the top, energetic execution in it's comedic and action scenes provides such a great contrast to those moments they come across more compelling and effective than they are on surface, at least for me.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I'm not saying that they aren't well-done moments, but I'm not really feeling that much from them either. LIke, yes, there's a contrast between the comedy and the drama, but that itself I've seen before in other series. What makes me actually feel something is when weight is given to what happens. The stuff that has happened in KLK so far hasn't been anything that really affects the status quo in any big way. For instance, consider those two death scenes in the Marineford arc of One Piece. That arc had plenty of over-the-top zaniness going on, but those scenes immediately switched things to pure drama, and moments like those nearly made me tear up because there was a lot of build-up for those characters and a lot of weight for what befell them. The "weight" of that drama is what I feel. In KLK, the serious/emotional moments are, like I said, executed well, but I haven't felt any real "weight" behind any of them, yet. I'm not saying that someone has to die in order for that to happen (there are other examples besides that), but it has to be the result of a very positive or negative occurrence happening with a lot at stake in regard to the consequences.

That's basically the best that I can explain what I mean.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Yeah, the weight to the moments hasn't been that strong yet, and I'm not saying they are anywhere near the level of stuff you mentioned. To reference the latest episode, Ryuko v. Mako wasn't as powerful a fight as Luffy v. Ussop by any stretch. At the same time, they are well done for the build up they've been given. It'll be a while before the show can give us some really powerful dramatic moments.. When we get further in the series, when the characters have reached fuller development and the story reaches it's tensest parts, then moments comparable to something like that stuff in Marineford could be possible, but for the level they are on right now, the dramatic moments in KLK have been serviceable for me, and I have little complaints. Few series can craft moments even that magnitude of compelling only 7 episodes in, anyway.

The appeal of the show, for me, is it's over the top action and comedy, which makes it such a blast for me to watch each week, so the attempts of character drama is just a nice cherry on a sundae for me anyway. I'm more interested in having fun with the show the way it is than wanting it to really go anywhere too serious with it's story, myself. 

[Foggle]

What can I say, if you're not invested in the characters, you won't feel the same way I do. I just think the way this show is presented makes it legitimately better than most modern anime that tries the same tricks in a more serious tone.