Battle Shonen Stuff

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Um, Attack on Titan. That's the biggest thing in the anime/manga fan community right now period.

Magi is also incredibly popular, and Sins has been picking up in popularity as well. As far as Jump goes, though it's not technically a battle manga, Assassination Classroom has already become the #2 series running in Weekly Shonen Jump after One Piece.

Do you mean popular in Japan or in the West? Because I hardly ever see anyone talking about Magi, though I honestly don't visit too many anime boards anymore.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Attack on Titan still doesn't seem to be a mainstream thing as far as I can see. But sure, okay. I still don't see any of the others as anything all too big. Certainly not on the level of the other three at their peak.

AOT is airing on Toonami and gets the most views of any show on that block by far. As far as North American anime fandom goes, I don't know how you can get anymore mainstream than that.

That said, I don't consider it a traditional battle shounen series in the same way that I do with One Piece and Dragon Ball. I know that it does technically fit the tropes, though, so I suppose that it counts, but having only one major hit in over a decade is very telling of how dry the market for good battle shounen series is. And at any rate, it's not so much a matter of popularity as it is one of quality. I've seen a fair amount of good series in the genre over the years, but I struggle to think of any that are truly great and memorable.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Attack on Titan still doesn't seem to be a mainstream thing as far as I can see. But sure, okay. I still don't see any of the others as anything all too big. Certainly not on the level of the other three at their peak.

It was the most streamed anime of last year, people were raving about it in just about every anime blog/anime site online, the series was put on Netflix before the dub ever came out because the demand was so high for it, Fox's ADHD block had a sketch about it (the only other individual anime that got one were Pokemon, DBZ, and Naruto), there are hordes of cosplayers at every anime convention, a significant chunk of people outside of anime fandom (aka people who don't really care about anime/normally watch it) have heard of it and a huge number are talking about and watching it, FUNi is making a killing selling their overpriced blu-rays, the anime is not only the highest rated show on Toonami by miles but also regularly the second highest rated show on [adult swim] on saturday nights, only being bested by the 9pm Family Guy, whereas Space Dandy only ever managed to beat The Boondocks in the same timeslot, once, and finally, the manga sells like hotcakes, with multiple volumes of it and it's numerous spinoffs littering the New York Times Bestselling manga list every week for the past year and a half, the first volume having been on the list for 65 weeks CONSECUTIVELY now, which I believe is an all-time record for any individual manga volume, and is also one of the top selling graphic novel series in general in the U.S.

If all of that does not indicate a massive mainstream success, I don't know what is. Honestly, AoT is bigger than One Piece has ever been here.

Also, I forgot to mention this before, but Fairy Tail is also super mega duper successful internationally as well. Maybe not on Titan's level, but pretty damn significantly. It's definitely as popular as Bleach was back in it's prime, if not more.

As for the other three series I mentioned, they are fairly successful though they are not megahits internationally yet. Of course, Sins and Classroom's anime adaptions have yet to premiere which is a make or break thing since more people know series through their anime than their manga, and while it's unlikely they'd reach Titan levels of popularity, I don't think Fairy Tail levels is too unlikely with the right exposure and good adaptions. Classroom's manga has also yet to be released in the States, so until it starts selling in December, it's too soon to say if it'll be as big here as it is in Japan.

Do you mean popular in Japan or in the West? Because I hardly ever see anyone talking about Magi, though I honestly don't visit too many anime boards anymore.

It's talked about pretty well on most sites and is well known and regarded. The manga is also selling very well for Viz.

Anyway, let me break away from this and address the post of E-K's that I missed before:

That does highlight the fact that only 5 of those are battle shounen, and of those I really think of Sinbad more like a part of the Magi series than a separate manga, even though it is technically a stand-alone manga that can be viewed on it's own, and only loosely ties in as a prequel to the main series.

I will admit that the number of currently running battle-shonen that I'm reading that I don't like or have dropped do outweigh the number of ones I enjoy. At the same time, there might be other good ones out there I just haven't read yet. For instance, I know that a lot of people have been digging World Trigger, but I still haven't gotten to it. But I was mainly addressing your statement that there are fewer good shonen manga in general out there than seinin, which I'm not sure is true, since both have an equal amount of crap and generic stuff right now, from what I can tell from my personal experience.

That said, even then, how many of those would you honestly say are close to the level of quality of some of the classics that I was mentioning, in terms of telling compelling and straightforward stories while tackling some more mature themes in a more subtle manner? Of those ones mentioned, I only keep up with Magi/Sinbad, and as previously stated, I like the franchise, but I do also find that it's one of those series that wears its moral messages on its sleeves, rather than giving the reader more room for their own interpretation without anything explicitly having to be spelled out for them. Hunter X Hunter has done this as well, ever since the Chimera Ant arc, and while I loved Meruem's development, it was anything but subtle.

Well, have you, personally, read any classic shonen manga besides Black Jack and Ashita no Joe that do that? I don't think you can justify and say that the majority shonen manga back in the day were full of subtlety and maturity just by reading two series, and even if you are confident that the other works of Takamori and Tezuka were, the output of two mangaka does not reflect an entire genre.

Now, from personal experience, and having read all three of the manga you named in their entirety, I agree that they are excellent in handling their themes and subject matter. So are a good other few shonen works I've read from Tezuka, including Phoenix, Apollo's Song, and Dororo. Though, of the lot, I will have to point out that Astro Boy was not always good with subtlety. In fact, several stories are blunt and obvious with their messages, mostly the earlier ones rather than the later ones when Tezuka was more experienced, but this still makes it a fairly uneven series on the whole. Nonetheless, just because Tezuka created a lot of good series doesn't mean his work reflects how shonen series were as a whole back in the 60's and 70's. The only other shonen series besides AnJ and Tezuka manga from that time period that I've watched/read even a smidgen of is Barefoot Gen, and while I love the movie and what I've seen of the manga, and it does handle grave and adult subject matter, it's honestly not that subtle about it, at least as far as the movie goes (I dunno how it is in the later parts of the story until I get to read the manga properly). That doesn't make it any less valuable of a work, or any less vivid and powerful of one, mind you (it's also autobiographical, and there's a lot of blunt truth to it), so arguably a lack of subtlety does not always indicate the work is any less well-written, and this is true for a good many series in any demographic/genre.

Moving along to the 80's, and I can only think of two shonen anime/manga I've seen from that decade that handle mature themes with subtlety: Area 88 and the Urusei Yatsura anime and films. Maybe Mermaid Saga as well, but though it's dark and more mature than most shonen it's kind of a stretch to say it handles any really deep subject matter. I any case, none of those three are traditional battle-shonen. When I think of battle-shonen from the decade, the series that come to mind to me are Space Adventure Cobra, Fist of the North Star, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and Dragon Ball: series that were over-the-top in their violence and more action-adventure focused, not caring much for exploring any mature or adult themes. But you don't think less of Dragon Ball for not realistically showing Goku grieve over the death of Krillin a la in AnJ, do you? Those series are what they are, and were good at what they were, and have stood the test of time because they did what they did well. They are simple, fun series that didn't take themselves too seriously, and they succeeded at what they wanted to succeed as.

Come the 90's, and I can really only think of two series fitting the maturity bill, YYH and Rurouni Kenshin. There's still other good shonen manga about, and certainly, lots more battle shonen were being written during this time thanks to Dragon Ball's influence, but outside of the aforementioned series, what can you really say you've read from the decade that really engaged challenging subject matter?

What I'm trying to get across is that I don't think that there were any more shonen series, especially among battle shonen, engaging in challenging or mature subject matter in the genre as a whole back in previous decades compared to now, certainly few with the subtlety demonstrated in AnJ and the cream of Tezuka's crop. As such, I feel that you can't chastise all modern series for not doing only what some of their best predecessors did. This doesn't mean that shonen, and especially battle-shonen, shouldn't be striving for better writing. It goes without saying that poorly written shit like Bleach and Fairy Tail shouldn't be getting made or popular. But at the same time, you shouldn't dismiss all and any series that aren't trying to tackle challenging subject matter either. No, I don't mean something like Magi, which actively brings up such topics, or Bleach, which always gives off the sense it thinks it's smarter than it actually is though it never addresses anything of value, but series like Toriko and Seven Deadly Sins, which only try to be fun series a la the 80's classics, are well-written, and succeed at what they do. All series of this sort might not be good (again, Fairy Tail doesn't try to be anything but "fun," but it's offensively poorly written), but there are those that are and I think manage to be quality, enjoyable series. Of course, I don't mean this for specifically battle-shonen, but modern shonen manga in general. Shokugeki no Soma, Assassination Classroom, Fuuka, etc. all know what they want to be, do what they need to do to be good series, and succeed at twisting their genres to make themselves feel fresh, unique, and entertaining reads.

That said, there are still shonen manga out there that have been made recently and handle mature subject matter well. As I've said before, A Silent Voice and Silver Spoon are the best among those currently running, and Cross Game was excellent in this regard as well (and is also one of my personal favorites). If you are pressed on seeing a modern battle shonen series like this, then Animal Land is your best bet, though I still haven't read the final six volumes so I can't speak for anything beyond the first half of it. Yes, this is only a small amount of series among the vast crop out there, but who knows, there might be more out there that I'm not aware of. And, again, from what I can tell, there's no real evidence that the shonen genre was ever full of series handling challenging, mature subject with tact on the whole. The works of Tezuka and Takamori reflect can only on their skill as mangaka, and can't adequately speak for the skills of the majority of the authors working in shonen manga in the 60's or 70's, and I just can't see much evidence from the bulk of series put out in the 80's or 90's either.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Way to take a point that I made and completely miss it. When did I say that classics manga from Tezuka and other series of that era in general were all subtle and all had the criteria that I was talking about? All I said was that those types of series from that era just aren't done anymore these days. I'm not sure how you take that and turn it into something about me making broad generalizations on an entire era of manga, because to my knowledge, I did not, or if I did, it certainly wasn't intentional.

As for modern shounen series, no, I haven't read everything that's out there, but I'm talking in regard to all of the more popular series that I've seen. And by how our opinions differ on certain modern shounen series, I can certainly say that while I'm sure that there are some battle shounen that I would enjoy well enough upon trying them, there are very few that I would love (if any). Magi is an example of this. While I enjoy the manga well enough, and do legitimately think that the Magnostadt arc is great, I don't love it nearly as much as you or Dalek on the whole. There's a certain level of quality that I want from what I consider to be a great shounen series, and I just haven't found that in any modern shounen for a long, long time, personally. If you think that there are modern ones that I haven't tried that I would find to be outright great, then by all means bring those up, but don't turn this into a "well, not all older manga were hits, either" discussion, because that goes without saying, and wasn't even my point to begin with. My point is that I'm not finding enough high quality shounen from this era because I see too many series that either play it to safe or don't have the writing talent to back their subject material.

[LumRanmaYasha]

Way to take a point that I made and completely miss it. When did I say that classics manga from Tezuka and other series of that era in general were all subtle and all had the criteria that I was talking about? All I said was that those types of series from that era just aren't done anymore these days. I'm not sure how you take that and turn it into something about me making broad generalizations on an entire era of manga, because to my knowledge, I did not, or if I did, it certainly wasn't intentional.

As for modern shounen series, no, I haven't read everything that's out there, but I'm talking in regard to all of the more popular series that I've seen. And by how our opinions differ on certain modern shounen series, I can certainly say that while I'm sure that there are some battle shounen that I would enjoy well enough upon trying them, there are very few that I would love (if any). Magi is an example of this. While I enjoy the manga well enough, and do legitimately think that the Magnostadt arc is great, I don't love it nearly as much as you or Dalek on the whole. There's a certain level of quality that I want from what I consider to be a great shounen series, and I just haven't found that in any modern shounen for a long, long time, personally. If you think that there are modern ones that I haven't tried that I would find to be outright great, then by all means bring those up, but don't turn this into a "well, not all older manga were hits, either" discussion, because that goes without saying, and wasn't even my point to begin with. My point is that I'm not finding enough high quality shounen from this era because I see too many series that either play it to safe or don't have the writing talent to back their subject material.

Hmm, my bad. I'm sorry I misinterpreted you. Now, if we are talking about just battle shonen specifically, then no, I don't think you'd enjoy series like Toriko or Sins as much as I do because they are simple fun series a la 80's battle shonen and you don't seem to like those kind of series as much judging by your opinions on JoJo's. But if we are talking about shonen manga as a whole, I disagree that there are absolutely none being done anymore, because I've read some series that have come out in the last few years that I think handle mature topics and subject matter very well and rank as some of my personal favorite manga: Silver Spoon, Cross Game, & A Silent Voice. I have a feeling that Silver Spoon might not leave as much impact on you as it does to me, but I do think you would enjoy Cross Game and Silent Voice a fair bit, and they are certainly not "safe" series by any stretch. Also, Franken Fran is basically Black Jack as a horror-comedy with an extra touch of social satire, so I'd highly recommend that as well. I'll tell you right now you are not going to come out of any of these series liking them as much as AnJ, since that is a difficult level of quality for any modern series seinin or shonen to reach, but they are high quality series that I would personally consider "favorites," a label that I have recently started to only apply to the top 10 or top 10% of what I've seen in a particular medium/genre, while I would only consider stuff like Magi, Toriko, or Classroom "good," so take that as you will.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

OK, That's a fair retort. I still have a backlog if other series, but I'll try A Silent Voice when it finishes (which I hear should be pretty soon), and I'll check out those other series when I can.

As for being as good as AnJ, that manga is a personal favorite for me, so I'm biased, but also don't expect anything else to give me exactly the same kind of feeling. I can recognize when something is on or above its level if quality, though.

And for the record, I don't actually think that every older shounen series is inherently great. I even pointed out an example of a mediocre one, which was Flame of Recca, but also stated how I still find that to be more entertaining than today's Naruto, Bleach, HSDK, and so on. To be more clear, it's not so much that I'm saying that the quality of shounen manga in general has dropped, because I don't actually believe that. It's more that I find the lows of today's worst shounen manga to be REALLY low (personally worse than most older stuff I've read, even what I don't like, but admittedly I'm not an expert on manga by any means), and, as previously stated, my main dilemma was in struggling to find series that I considered to be the modern equivalent to the "highs" or "peak" of the genre. That's really what I've been trying to get at.

[LumRanmaYasha]

And for the record, I don't actually think that every older shounen series is inherently great. I even pointed out an example of a mediocre one, which was Flame of Recca, but also stated how I still find that to be more entertaining than today's Naruto, Bleach, HSDK, and so on. To be more clear, it's not so much that I'm saying that the quality of shounen manga in general has dropped, because I don't actually believe that. It's more that I find the lows of today's worst shounen manga to be REALLY low (personally worse than most older stuff I've read, even what I don't like, but admittedly I'm not an expert on manga by any means), and, as previously stated, my main dilemma was in struggling to find series that I considered to be the modern equivalent to the "highs" or "peak" of the genre. That's really what I've been trying to get at.

Yeah, I can agree with this. While I haven't read too many truly bad older shonen, I feel I'd be hard pressed to find a series that was so incredibly popular as Naruto, Bleach, or Fairy Tail, and yet be so awfully, terribly written that it legitimately and frequently infuriates me. With such series being uber popular, it can be had to discern the cream of the crop sometimes, especially since a lot of untraditional battle shonen and those outside the genre rarely get to be nearly as popular in the western fandom, even if they may be of significantly better quality.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I heard that Psyren was an interesting shounen series that had a bit of a cult following, but ended up being prematurely canceled because not enough people were reading it. Desensitized recommended that one to me. I believe that Mx0 suffered a similar fate, and I heard a lot of good things about that as well.

[Spark Of Spirit]

 

I heard that Psyren was an interesting shounen series that had a bit of a cult following, but ended up being prematurely canceled because not enough people were reading it. Desensitized recommended that one to me. I believe that Mx0 suffered a similar fate, and I heard a lot of good things about that as well.

Yeah, those were fun series.

Not juggernauts of quality or future masterpieces like AoT, but solid shonen series.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

It's just a shame that some interesting series have to be canceled in favor I'd less interesting but more popular manga, but I suppose that's always been part of the business. It only gets to keep running if it sells, which is a harsh reality, but it does make you wonder why more people don't read those kinds if series, then.

As for massive Juggernauts like Naruto and Bleach, the funny thing is that I didn't even hate them fir a good portion of their runs. For Naruto, everything up to the time-skip was alright, and with Bleach, it was a decent enough shounen up to Soul Society. It's just that their later arcs got so atrociously bad that they actually managed to retroactively hate everything about those series, even if they really were far off from terrible in the beginning. I suppose it speaks volumes for how long ago those series probably should have ended, but it really baffles me that Bleach held it's popularity for quite some time before finally (and deservedly) falling under the radar, and that Naruto is somehow still incredibly popular.

[Spark Of Spirit]

On the plus side, soon they'll be over and allowing room for new series to take their place. Hopefully something better will come along sooner than later. But who really knows with the manga world.

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

I've been hearing that Bleach will be ending soon....for YEARS! Why should I believe it now if it still hasn't happened yet?

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Top 5 Less Significant Shounen Cliches That Need To Die:

5. Excessive boob jokes/ecchi humor- OK, this is more of a general anime cliche, and I get that some people actually like these, but some series really need to limit this kind of humor. A key example (and just one of many), is HSDK, in which this sort of humor got so abundant that you would literally see a boob or ass shot at least once per page, and I'm not even exaggerating that. The actual jokes about it came a couple per chapter, and it just became more obnoxious than anything else, and was a big factor for why I stopped reading this manga. I don't like these jokes to begin with, but if used in moderation, I an at least tolerate them, but some series don't know what moderation even means.

4. Referring to everything as "that"- Perhaps it may be more of a translation problem, and you don't see it that much in officially translated and published works, so this is a minor one,  but I get sick of seeing characters mention other characters who we're not supposed to know about yet as THAT person or THAT man. It just kind of bugs me when I see it in manga all of the time. Translators should just use something different each time to make it sound more natural in English.

3. Specifically for sports series: most big and talented opponents are total dicks until they get beaten- I understand that this is a way for us to root for the main character(s) to beat them, but it's just lazy writing. While not every series does this, I've seen plenty of modern sports series that have the opponents act like ass-holes just because they are better than everyone else, and then they try to give them a sympathetic back-story by mid-game, but you don't care anymore because you still just see them as dicks. Kuroko no Basket did this with EVERYONE, now that I think about it. Akashi was literally a border-line psychopath, but then he loses to Kuroko and suddenly they're best buds. Either go full-on with them being crazy twats, or make them more 3-Dimensional from the get-go.

2. Explaining every joke- Japan....just....no. Stop it. even you must know the Universal rule of "if you have to explain a joke, then your joke is an unfunny piece of shit." I think your audience is smart enough to get your jokes. And don't tell me that it's a cultural thing, because it isn't, given how many series go against this. Toriyama doesn't have to explain every joke to you in Dr. Slump. Fumoffu doesn't blatantly tell you every anime that it's referencing. So for those manga that just keep doing it in general, stop it. More specifically, I'm looking at you, Oda.

1. Deus Ex Power-Up- Can nobody just use their brain, anymore? It's like anyone's hope for any dilemma is just along the lines of, "well, we totally got dooped by the enemies, but actually there was this thing that we could've done all along that will get you (all of you) stronger super quick, and by all along I mean, that the writer just came up with it because he's a lazy motherfucker just trying to make his week-to-week paycheck."

And before you get all anal with a super wordy response, CX, I'm obligated to tell you that im only being semi-serious here, if you can't tell by the tone of my post. I know that this doesn't apply to all shounen series. It's just stuff that I've noticed in some that I read which bug mea but and that I wanted to make fun of. That's all.

[LumRanmaYasha]

I completely agree. I passionately hate all those cliches.

Reading through them, I could immediately think of no less than ten examples for each that really pissed me off. Most of them were from Fairy Tail. Which just serves to remind me of how much I fucking hate Fairy Tail. 

[Dr. Ensatsu-ken]

Oh yeah, and remembering your Fairly Tail example, I hate it when eccchi extends its way into scenes that are meant to be taken seriously. HSDK does this a lot, and it's atrocious. I mean, someone could be dying, and literally the next panel is an ass shot.