Animation Revelation Forum

Now, I've already explained countless times in the past as to why I feel that a lot of people mistakenly judge Shonen only among the battle genre, when that is only just a mere branch of Shonen (well, its certainly the biggest branch among them, but it doesn't define shonen series as a whole), and doesn't reflect it as some single genre. Shonen is more of a demographic than it is a genre, specifically one that ranges from kids of 10-14 up to teenagers and even adolescents from ages 18 and older. Shonen isn't just Naruto and Bleach, but its also Death Note, Fullmetal Alchemist, Great Teacher Onizuka, Bakuman, Claymore, and various other series that break through the mold of just featuring generic battles between young angst-driven teens with super powers and abilities.

That said, ironically enough, since I've already touched upon that, I'm not going into that in this thread. Instead, I want a discussion thread based on the more stereotypical type of shonen series that I constantly point out doesn't encompass shonen as a whole. Now, I myself am not a super huge fan of the battle shonen type of series, but I don't hate it either, despite the fact that I find that at least 9 out of every 10 battle series that I try are complete junk. I will say that when a battle series is done right, it truly stands out on its own and can stand up to any top tier series of any other genre, as far as I'm concerned.

The battle shonen genre, to me, is really Japan's equivalent of what the mainstream super hero genre is for us Westerners among comic books. That said, while the super hero genre has been able to successfully evolve in many aspects with brilliant series like Watchmen and the various Batman comics to have come out since the 1980's, among many other things, I feel that the shonen genre has mostly only regressed into formulaic fodder. That said, that doesn't mean that the good series of the bunch shouldn't get the respect and credit that they deserve. As such, I have created this thread for that sort of discussion, and while I don't have time to get into it now, I myself plan to put up some "good series vs. bad series" posts among battle shonen series, and give my personal opinion and judgments as to why I believe what's good in the genre to be good and why it stands out on top of the bad ones.

It'd be interesting to get Foggle in on some of these conversations, as well, though I'm sure he'll steer clear of this thread just from the word shonen being mentioned in it. :sweat:

In all honesty, though, I can fully understand and even somewhat agree with many people's distaste for the genre, including Foggle's. I just feel that its unfortunate that they were mostly only exposed to the crap on offer in the genre, or at best the plainly mediocre ones.

That said, I'm going to be fair and point out the faults in the genre itself, but also its few strengths that no other genre really has, and how those very strengths should really be exploited more.

That's all I'll say for now, but until then, I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on what they think of battle-based shonen series.

Well, YYH is awesome, of course, and I'm assuming that would be considered a battle shounen. Do you count Fist of the North Star and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure as battle shounen? Those are great!

Sakigake!! Otokojuku is one of my all-time favorite manga series and that's definitely battle shounen territory (it was even printed in Shounen Jump, I believe). I recommend giving that a read sometime, it's absolutely hilarious.

Well, if you're bringing up Hokuto no Ken/Fist of the North Star, then that practically started the whole entire battle shonen genre (which as you can tell is both a good and bad thing in many ways). But Fist of the North Star is indeed a great series, when we're talking about the manga. As for the anime....its not bad, but Toei really pisses me off with how notorious they are for dragging out their anime adaptations of shonen series. Dragon Ball Z suffered from that same fate to a great extent, and while One Piece initially seemed to be getting away with it, it also succumbed to what I like to call Toei-syndrome.

And yeah, I like YYH primarily because it does way more than just battles, and even when it does battles, they are actually somehow made interesting.

One thing I wanted to bring up is that I only hate the battle aspect of battle shonen series when the battles are dreadfully boring....and unfortunately that applies to 90% of all battle shonen series. For example, I just can't find any interest in any of the fights in Naruto when I can't keep track of what abilities each character has since each character seems to have hundreds of different abilities and it seems that there are, like....at least a few hundred different characters that we've already seen. Its just no fun. It drags on forever, and I see a bunch of random attacks being thrown around. One thing I like about how Togashi constructs fights in both YYH and HXH is that the good guys are usually at a severe disadvantage to the villains and have to rely far more on extremely simple yet igneous methods in order to just stay alive and survive their various encounters and situations. It makes things feel more desperate, and its nice that the battles don't drag out for 10+ episodes/chapters (on the contrary, they are usually finished well within the confines of a single chapter/episode). It also works because its balanced out with a lot of plot going on in the background, good characterization, and great dialogue that helps give flavor the characters and the entire mood of the series in general based on how the various characters interact with one another.

Meanwhile, all I see something like Bleach doing is constantly introducing new characters and new attacks and....that's pretty much it. Its not like most of them even do anything except stand there and try to look cool. It really pisses me off that drek like this is more popular than series with actual effort behind them (especially the great shonen series that have nothing to do with battles and fantasy and such).

I've heard of Sakigake before. I'll have to give that a try, sometime. I've also been recommended Toriko by a friend of mine, so I may check that manga out sometime, as well.

I wouldn't say that superhero comics evolved. You got your great comic here and there and then there's the fact that we had to suffer through House Of M and Civil War. Bleck.

Quote from: gunswordfist on February 04, 2011, 03:26:35 PM
I wouldn't say that superhero comics evolved. You got your great comic here and there and then there's the fact that we had to suffer through House Of M and Civil War. Bleck.

Yeah, but crossover events aside, this age of comics generally has a bit more flavour compared to the Dark Age (which itself improved upon the Bronze Age).

Yeah, most battle manga aren't very good because they tend to follow the formula too well that it becomes an absolute bore to read/watch. For every One Piece, you have about ten Beet The Vandel Busters which are as boring and predictable as they come.

Also, since the classics nailed the style so well (FOTNS, DB, YYH) it's really hard for new ones to compete without feeling like total rehashes.

I kind of ran into the same problem with Seinen more recently, the only difference is that the bad Seinen doesn't clog about the genre nearly as much even if it's more prominent than it should be. But that might be because more Shonen is brought over here than Seinen so it's hard to judge.

And, you see, I don't mind so much that there is a certain formula to the whole battle manga genre. That in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, having stuff like giving the main character a goal to reach is a good thing if done right and helps make the feeling of progression all the more satisfying if you actually care about the character and enjoy seeing them get closer to reaching their goal. But that's what it really comes down to, the battles, the abilities, the unique aspects of the world if the story is more fantasy-focused are all things that come secondary to characters. Honestly, at its heart, battle shonen series are supposed to be about the characters, and the best of them out there are the ones that really make their cast of characters interesting to follow, and have a good chemistry between many of the characters to the point where you're most interested in seeing how they interact with one another.

You see, series like One Piece and Digimon Adventure are very formulaic for the most part (well, One Piece has evolved so that Oda has given the formula his own distinct twist, but unfortunately too many other long-running shonen series are just content with staying in their comfort zone and not trying anything new), but the reason for why they are so great and so well-loved by fans is really because of their memorable and likable characters, more than anything else. I find both series to be highly enjoyable because I find all of the main characters to be very interesting with extremely well-written back stories and who also play off of each other really well. In One Piece's case the antics of the crew during each arc are nothing short of hilarious and its really nice to see them lighten up the mood with how fun their interactions with each other can be, and its also interesting to see how different characters interact with different villains. In Digimon's case, you get to see stuff like that as well, and as a bonus each character gets a significant amount of development for themselves and really gets to have the more meaningful aspects of their characters explored. By contrast, the battles were the more boring fodder part of the series for me, even when I was a kid. I loved Digimon Adventure purely because of how well-written its characters were, and for the most part I finally got into One Piece because its characters really grew on me.

Now contrast that with stuff like Naruto, Bleach, D. Gray-Man, and **Insert any other popular generic shonen title here**, and all it seems that they are doing is just trying too hard to make their characters come off as cool. They feel that just introducing a lot of new powerful characters makes things interesting, but it just makes it more boring and even harder to connect with any of the main characters. In Naruto's case, it got the point where I couldn't even keep track of all of its characters and whenever another one came back after a gap of several chapters I would have almost completely forgotten who he or she was. Its a good thing to not have your main character be the entire focus of the story in every single chapter, but its just going plain overboard when the main character appears for a handful of chapters at a time and is then overshadowed by a dozen new characters who are introduced at a time and get very little to no development for them (and even if they do, you'll more often than not find yourself not caring one bit about them, anyways). Bleach is even worse in this regard. While Naruto at least has some level of characterization, I really feel that after the Soul Society arc, Bleach's characters literally had no personality whatsoever, and the new characters just came off as dull, lifeless dolls.

That's basically the reason for why Yu Yu Hakusho is still the best battle shonen out there, to me, personally. Its very much a character-driven series, beyond even the fights and action. As for people who prefer Hunter X Hunter, I do enjoy the series and admit that its better in certain aspects, but one reason I give for why I don't feel that Togashi managed to surpass YYH's quality with it is because its characters aren't really as interesting. Well, to be more clear, I think it has a few really well-done characters (the main character, Gon, isn't really one of them, though). But for a character as interesting and well-developed as Killua, you'll get a fair number of extremely plain characters, who aren't necessarily bad but do nothing to leave a lasting impression on you and really only serve more as plot devices to move the story along. In YYH's case, whether it was luck or pure talent, I feel that Togashi really managed to make each and every one of the characters he introduced since the Dark Tournament arc (especially the villains) completely memorable.

I don't mind the battle rehashes, just like with pro wrestling - it's all about the hypes and the buildup, and then the come from behind or overcoming adversity win.

Although some matchups seem mandatory:
Battle royales and draw numbers to decide the bracket spots.
The pervy guy losing to the hot femme fatale.
The mysterious participant.
The kid genius or some brainy dude.
The strong girl/boy that's usually related to someone famous.
The bots.
The cheaters.
The Bruce Lee lookalikes.
The buddy that you promise to meet in the semis, or cheer for until they lose to a tough participant.
The Karate Kid strategy of sabotaging your opponent for the next round. (well not too often but I like it)
And of course the super boss S-class like rival that you won't get to meet until the finals but is the reason you entered the tournament in the first place.

Titles that I liked outside the obvious DB / YYH / OP ones:
Angelic Layer - There are a lot of battles that employ the typical matchups but also the optimistic, resourceful protagonist.
Negima's Mahora Tournament - A lot of battles among friends, and some decent magical strategies. The rest of the manga suffers a bit from new character saturation.
Initial D - most Battles are close wins, but still fun to listen to their on-board strategies.
Bamboo Blade - at least in the anime series they didn't make it to the finals, but nice to cheer for the girls.
Rurouni Kenshin - Kyoto arc had some great buildups and decent boss fights. Not too many new moves either, but gotta play with what you have.

Ones that could have used more help:
Air Gear - well it had potential but having each battle be a do-or-die situation gets tedious
MAR - ok fine, have chess ranks, but why put rook below a knight? just seems like it's One Piece without as strong an interaction, and without a decent buildup of the enemies/rivals.
Ikki Tousen - ugh, you already overloaded the show with shredded clothes and panty-service, who really gives a crap about a tournament?
Sekirei - same reasoning as Ikki Tousen, except with large breasts, oh and it doesn't start until the second season

Quote from: Angus on February 04, 2011, 09:28:45 PM
Ones that could have used more help:
Ikki Tousen - ugh, you already overloaded the show with shredded clothes and panty-service, who really gives a crap about a tournament?
Sekirei - same reasoning as Ikki Tousen, except with large breasts, oh and it doesn't start until the second season

Both of those shows are already beyond the point of having any amount of help do them any good, lol. :D

Oh, I forgot about My-Hime. Now there's an entertaining battle royale: Unwilling participants, temporary alliances, betrayals, mysterious late entrants, and that the stakes were that if you lose, you didn't lose your life since that's cliche but you lose the person you loved the most.

There's also the Run the Gauntlet battle style where the players go through several rounds of adversaries before reaching the boss fight; worked great with YYH and DB.  And the dreaded open-ended Collection Quest where you never know how many pieces you need to win, but usually those focus more on adventures than battles. Fortunately shows like Soul Eater don't wear you down with that tedium and jump straight to the more interesting conflicts.

I'd like to hear some recommendations for battle themed shows that are good with animating realistic physical fighting techniques. I remember seeing some wrestling in an episode of Magical Witch Punie-Chan that was fairly decent, but then I had to go watch Master of Martial Hearts (which makes Ikki Tousen look good) where they focused on clothes shredding to boobs for pointless reasons.

While far from realistic, Hunter X Hunter has very fluidly animated physical fight scenes, which have some element of martial arts to them (at least it seems that way).

In terms of other shows, I've seen some pretty fluid fights in Hajime no Ippo, though sometimes that anime itself can stretch reality, but its probably the most realistic that I've seen from a shonen series.

Other than that, I'm not too sure to be honest. I have seen some shonen series that do have more realistic marital arts or fighting in them, but those ones usually end up having pretty weak animation just like most other shonen series, so it doesn't make much of a difference.

I'm sure that Desensitized could probably recommend something better, though.

Another discussion question....errrr, more like a series of discussion questions, I guess:

What is it about this genre that might usually turn you away from shounen shows? Basically, it could be anything, from the abundance of bad battle shonen manga/shows out there to the plethora or agonizingly bad cliches that plague most shonen series. And a little sub-question I would like to add is: What are some things that you think kill a series that has some potential to be good and would otherwise be entertaining? By that question I basically mean, what is it that some mangaka could do that could take a series that starts out OK enough and then ends up making it completely unreadable or unwatchable?

Also, what are the few exceptions to you (if any exist) among battle shonen series, and why exactly do you find them to be good, or at least entertaining and bearable to watch as opposed to most other battle shonen series out there?

Oh, and we all know that Fist of the North Star and Dragon Ball, for better or worse, are basically the main 2 titles that have influenced most modern shonen up until today. However, if any of you could pick another shonen series that most modern mangaka should take influence from in terms of its stronger aspects, which series would it be? And as far as that question goes, it could be more than one series.

And one final question that I have is which currently running battle manga do any of you guys find to be good? That is, of course, assuming there are any that you guys are currently following that you enjoy enough to recommend.

In this case, I have quite a few things to say myself, so I'll give my own personal answers to my own discussion questions in this thread a little bit later on.

I like a good fight scene as much as the next guy. If it takes a couple of episodes to get an epic one across and add some development in there, so be it, but when you end up padding them just to reach a specific episode order, that's when it gets a little annoying to watch. I don't think I have the patience in me to watch whole episodes of powering up like I did when I watched DBZ as a kid, even if the pay off is totally worth it.

I can't really think of any specific cliches that annoy me besides padding. Humor I'm hit or miss on, I guess. I can laugh at some shounen if the series is honestly funny, like Dragon Ball, but constant pervert jokes and nagging like in Inuyasha gets on my nerves. I'm a little forgiving when it comes to fillers since the way the Japanese television market runs is a little different than over here, but unless the filler is worth watching, I'll tend to skip over it, at least during rewatching. And I guess that mostly relies on the staff and how they interpret the characters and story they're adapting.

As for the last two questions, I don't really follow manga and I'd say YYH is my favorite battle manga. I do read Claymore, but I haven't been catching up with it lately, so I don't really know what to say about it right now, and I'll get to why Yu Yu is my personal choice later.

Quote from: Avaitor on April 19, 2011, 08:53:51 PM
I like a good fight scene as much as the next guy. If it takes a couple of episodes to get an epic one across and add some development in there, so be it, but when you end up padding them just to reach a specific episode order, that's when it gets a little annoying to watch. I don't think I have the patience in me to watch whole episodes of powering up like I did when I watched DBZ as a kid, even if the pay off is totally worth it.

Ah, Yes, one can't properly address the strengths and faults of battle shonen series without mentioning something about fight scenes, since (let's admit it, here) that is pretty much the main essence of any battle shonen series, even the really good ones. Great story and characters are of course the most important thing, but in battle shonen its all worked around the fights, so the idea is basically to try and make characters that you care about enough, but that you also want to see get into some action-packed situations, so that you will actually enjoy the action.

And, if you ask me, that is THE key element that most battle series miss these days. Let me give you an example by explaining my beef with Naruto, the reason why what honestly could have been a decent series is such drek to read/watch (IMO). The thing about that series is that I simply don't care about any of the characters, and in many cases I find them to be downright unlikable, and if a character is likable its ironically usually a villain who I can somehow unintentionally sympathize with more "relative" to the main cast. What the problem is with series like Naruto, Bleach, and many modern shonen in general is that they just try to "cram" in characters up the wazoo. Its all style over substance, with the author trying to add in as many "cool-looking" characters as he can, but the more characters you add into the story in a shorter amount of time gives the author much less time to expand on each of them, and in the instance that one character actually is starting to get interesting, the author annoys readers like me by switching focus to a different character when I still wanted to see the previous character expanded upon some more. Currently Naruto is in the middle of a war arc, sort of akin to how One Piece had one not too long ago, but the reason that Naruto's war is so much less enjoyable (yes, I actually do keep up with this series, but only out of habit rather than actually wanting to follow it) is because it has attempted to add in a lot of new figures to make the scope more epic, but the problem lies in the fact that as a viewer I have never seen these characters before and therefore have no reason to care about them, and the added in exposition to try and expand on each new one is not done very effectively so I just don't give a crap about what happens to any of them.

By contrast, One Piece actually was similar in that it brought in a lot of famous figures that the reader wasn't familiar with but who were only referred to before, but the difference is that Oda is actually pretty talented at good characterization in a short amount of time, but more than that the story kept moving and was mostly focused on the main characters that we did know, anyways, so as a reader I was still interested to see what was going to happen in all of the action.

Then there is also the case of making the battles themselves actually interesting with strategic elements of having the heroes in unfair handicaps which you want to see how they'll overcome. Togashi is a master of this style of battle manga, as can be seen in both YYH and HXH (and in addition to that you actually care about the characters, of course).

QuoteI can't really think of any specific cliches that annoy me besides padding. Humor I'm hit or miss on, I guess. I can laugh at some shounen if the series is honestly funny, like Dragon Ball, but constant pervert jokes and nagging like in Inuyasha gets on my nerves. I'm a little forgiving when it comes to fillers since the way the Japanese television market runs is a little different than over here, but unless the filler is worth watching, I'll tend to skip over it, at least during rewatching. And I guess that mostly relies on the staff and how they interpret the characters and story they're adapting.

Yeah, I have to say, if anything is my biggest beef with battle series, especially the anime for them, its constant padding. Its what makes DBZ so unbearable for me to watch for half of the series, since I have to struggle through tons of padding and drawn out scenes in order to get to the rewarding ones. Toei has also been doing this with One Piece for quite a while. Yu Yu Hakusho, Hunter X Hunter, and the Kyoto arc of Rurouni Kenshin are among the few shonen series that have managed to avoid this trope, and it really shows in how much more engaging the series are when they keep focused and on-track with their story and characters.

QuoteAs for the last two questions, I don't really follow manga and I'd say YYH is my favorite battle manga. I do read Claymore, but I haven't been catching up with it lately, so I don't really know what to say about it right now, and I'll get to why Yu Yu is my personal choice later.

Of course you know I agree with YYH. ;)

I have to continue reading Claymore at some point this summer.

Currently I follow One Piece and it has its highs and lows but overall its still miles above just about any other currently running battle manga that I have tried.

I'll speak more about shonen that tick me off, and especially about ones that could have been quite good if they had better writing and an author with a talent for characterization and story-telling, and in this case rather than talking about something so obvious like Bleach or something else, I'm going to go ahead and rant about why HSDK has infinitely pissed me off for the longest time, now.

I have to agree with you about characters making extended fighting storyarcs worth sitting through. I probably wouldn't enjoy the Dark Tournament arc as much as I do if the main characters weren't so well-developed and a lot of the supporting fighters also were fleshed out. I mean, you compare that to the tournament arcs in the Dragon Ball franchise, and it's like day and night. Granted, I don't think the tournament arcs in DB/DBZ were meant to be taken as seriously or were as crucial to the series, but it's still a valid comparison.

I knew you would agree with YYH. That's why I didn't get into detail as to why I chose it, since either you knew why or would just talk about it anyway. And I'm still working on something related to it, anyway. ;)

Quote from: Avaitor on April 19, 2011, 11:24:33 PM
I have to agree with you about characters making extended fighting storyarcs worth sitting through. I probably wouldn't enjoy the Dark Tournament arc as much as I do if the main characters weren't so well-developed and a lot of the supporting fighters also were fleshed out. I mean, you compare that to the tournament arcs in the Dragon Ball franchise, and it's like day and night. Granted, I don't think the tournament arcs in DB/DBZ were meant to be taken as seriously or were as crucial to the series, but it's still a valid comparison.

Well, during the first tournament arc, Dragon Ball was still a gag manga for the most part, so it was still more full of humor than serious action. By the 2nd tournament arc DB had adopted a tad bit of serious elements, but it was still primarily focused on humor, and the tournament was a good combination of humor and a little bit of serious character moments, and I actually like how Tien, who was originally introduced as a villain, actually wasn't treated as a 1-dimensional character and started disagreeing with his master's teachings and seeing that Roshi wasn't the evil martial artist that his master had made him out to be. Also the fight between him and Goku was done extremely well since Toriyama is a master of crafting both fun and intense fights, which is why with DB its the rare case in which I actually even enjoyed the fights of the minor characters, even if I didn't give a crap about whether they lived, died, won, or lost. A good example of how good the fight between Goku and Tien was can be easily represented in certain scenes, such as one gag-based scene that was actually making fun of the whole "so fast that you leave after-images" cliche, in which Goku did an after-image technique and ended up behind Tien only for Tien to reveal that he also did it to once again end up behind Goku, only for Goku to reveal that he did a double-after-image technique only for Tien to reveal that he did a double, and so on until they each got behind each other about 4 or 5 times until Tien goes "crap" (he basically ran out of after-images :P ) and Goku lands a hit on him. That's brilliant comedy right there. Then there was a more intense moment where Tien warns Goku that if he doesn't dodge his next attack it will certainly kill him, and the attack encompasses the area of the entire ring floor, so the only way Goku can seemingly avoid it is by jumping out of the ring which would be the same as forfeiting the match (remember, this is well before Goku learned the ability to fly), so this creates a pretty interesting scenario in which the viewer will wonder how Goku will manage to get out of this situation. Stuff like this is a big reason for why Toriyama is considered a genius. He basically just pulled stuff out of his ass on a weekly basis (he even pretty much admitted this, and wasn't the least bit bothered by it), but no matter what he did it still usually turned out to be entertaining. So I'd actually kind of use Dragon Ball (the first anime series, without the Z, of course, and also the manga) as another example of how to do good fights, but in the case of having weaker characters.

That said, I agree that its not quite as good as something you'd see in YYH because Togashi is better in terms of making you actually take most of the fights more seriously, and you actually want to see the good guys win.

QuoteI knew you would agree with YYH. That's why I didn't get into detail as to why I chose it, since either you knew why or would just talk about it anyway. And I'm still working on something related to it, anyway. ;)

Heh, Well I'd feel offended if you didn't know that much about me by now, obviously. ;)

One thing that turns me off is when the main character is basically a Goku or Naruto character. Simplistic and dumb but hot blooded and tough, you know? It might be because I've seen that character done so many times, but I'm just tired of it. Same thing with the mysterious emo character that is a rival that turns teammate. Rival characters are supposed to be badass like Saito, weird like Kuwabara, or fucking evil like Char. Not pussy characters whose only motivation is because they aren't man enough to do anything about their problems.

So yeah, with me, it's characters. I think even a cliche plot can be good enough if the characters are watchable.

Quote from: Desensitized on April 20, 2011, 01:19:27 AM
One thing that turns me off is when the main character is basically a Goku or Naruto character. Simplistic and dumb but hot blooded and tough, you know? It might be because I've seen that character done so many times, but I'm just tired of it. Same thing with the mysterious emo character that is a rival that turns teammate. Rival characters are supposed to be badass like Saito, weird like Kuwabara, or fucking evil like Char. Not pussy characters whose only motivation is because they aren't man enough to do anything about their problems.

So yeah, with me, it's characters. I think even a cliche plot can be good enough if the characters are watchable.

Eh, I'm going to have to disagree with Goku to some extent. The thing is, Dragon Ball is a very different kind of series. In any other type of series I'd find Goku to be a terrible character just like most people do, but in all honesty he fits perfectly in Dragon Ball, a series which was tailor-made for a main character such as him. It has a very archaic sort of philosophy to it, being that its basically a series where everyone who's anyone loves to fight and its acceptable enough to the characters that Goku has no real sense of common decency. At any rate he's a very different character from Naruto. He isn't really hot-blooded, either, as he's not that "spunky hero with something to prove," which in and of-itself spawns the hot-blooded attitude. He's more like a character with no goal but just an extreme love for challenging battles. If any character is more like him its probably Luffy, but rather than battles Luffy's extreme love is applied to adventure and exploration.

I agree with you about the emo characters, though.

I meant like Goku, not actually Goku. For a while it seemed every Shonen had a Goku as a main character and it got annoying.

I think the problem with other shonen like that is that their stories and characters didn't have Toriyama's particular style and touch of humor them, and they generally tried to make more serious stories, but were obviously very influenced by Dragon Ball and memorable characters like Goku. The problem lies in the fact that Goku is a character who simply just wouldn't work in any other piece of fiction, and it really shows in shonen series that have main characters or any characters at all who act a lot like Goku when presented with other characters who do not fit Toriyama's style. Its at this point you realize how annoying that character type is in other settings, as characters like that are clearly meant to be liked by the viewer but just come of as horribly selfish in wanting to reach their own goals and irritatingly brain-dead and naive to the point of being sickening. That's basically what makes characters like these so annoying. Having a determined character with big goals is not a bad thing at all, in and of itself, but it has to be handled properly, like with Luffy.

You know what type of main character we need more of in battle shonen these days, though? We need more Yusukes out there. I mean, honestly, he's a great contrast to the typical shonen hero. He is selfish in many ways but in this case its intentional and he openly acts crude to those around him, including his own teacher/mentor. He doesn't give a crap about coming off as a good guy and at the end of the day he would rather go back to doing trivial stuff in his life rather than taking on missions for Spirit World, except for around the end of the series where even he goes down the "battle-hungry" route, which is a little disappointing, but he's still a damn fun character. Honestly, a character doesn't need to have a goal to be a good character, and that's why it pisses me off when some people use that as a weakness in Togashi's writing and in Yusuke's character when they claim that YYH is inferior to other shonen that do have characters that follow that trope. I mean, if you get past the whole "goal" thing and see Yusuke for the type of character he is, he's actually quite a lot of fun, and works well as a main character because of how he plays off and influences the action of the other characters in the series. He's perfect because he's just sensible enough to be a good guy and a main character but is also amoral enough that he can be really fun and occasionally unpredictable to watch (well, speaking from the point of view of someone reading or watching YYH for the first time, anyways) in how he does things his own way and actually yields far better results than most other shonen heroes would in the same types of situations.

Also, another key thing as far as characters go is that characters need to play off of each other really well for a series to work. Their needs to be a dynamic chemistry between them whenever they interact. So many shonen series these days feel like they have cardboard cut-out characters that don't even feel like they belong in the same series. In other words it feels like the authors of shonen series like this just throw in characters for the sake of adding in new characters, whether they really fit into the story or not, and they don't even bother to experiment with different character interaction scenarios and possibilities. You know what I really liked about Digimon Adventure? It really went all-out into exploring all sorts of different character interaction combos, taking full advantage of the large group of characters and constantly splitting them up so that they would always be in a new sub-group out of the main group to interact with. As a viewer, that always kept me far more interested than the story itself did, and certainly much more than any of the action did.

Basically, I really like to see characters acting and reacting in response to other characters. Character chemistry is essentially the most important things about characters in a series, as no matter how good the background story and personality of a single character may be, it means nothing if there isn't immediately another character with his or her own distinct features in personality and actions to compare them to.

A few tropes that make me roll my eyes at battle shonen:

The Hulk effect - when your hero has to regularly rely on a hidden superhero power or ability to win, yet has no clue that he or she has that ability. It's a cop out for what could be a decent battle with strategy, overcoming odds with resourcefulness, and a strong set of moves.

Multi-boss RPG stage - Similarly when the boss is beaten so badly, they transform and become twice as strong??  It's so unrealistic. If you lose, you can accept defeat but initiate another round like with Luffy vs. Crocodile in the Alabasta arc. I can understand holding back your full potential too since that happens a lot in competitions with the whole sizing up and warm-up stuff.

Class rankings – I just watched the first episode of Ga Rei Zero, which was pretty good, except they had to rank the monsters on an E to A/S-class scale. Same with Air Gear, Ikki Tousen, MAR, Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle and most mediocre battle shonen anime. At least with DBZ when they had Power Levels and made a lot of fun of that when the heroes would totally break the system. And with Yu Yu Hakusho, the rankings come much later when the heroes are already established. But heh, I hate grades anyway, I don't want that crap in my anime and be reminded of being evaluated all the time.

Weak action – anime should be animated when it comes to fight scenes, it should not just be a bunch of partly slide drawn or cut away lightning fast punches and sword slashes and then followed by the animated knockback. If I wanted that, I'd read the manga. Ga-Rei-Zero episode 1 had one good sequence where a girl fought a monster using her motorcycle, but everything else was sort of generic until the end of the episode.

Oh, yeah, can't forget:

I want to become stronger - that's so overused, and such a weak goal. Works for sports and weight training, but not fights. It's better to show a storyline where the character actually does get stronger and can contend again.

Mecha=sleep - hand to hand combat is cool, but when the heroes and villains jump into mechs like Power Rangers, they better be stepping up the action, or they'll put me to sleep.

The best arc of Yu Yu Hakusho was the one where ranks meant shit. Unfortunately, try finding a battle manga like that now. Flame Of Recca is one of the few I can think of where there were no "levels", and it was refreshing to read.

Now it's always arc-power up-arc-power up-arc-power up repeat until end.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 19, 2011, 08:18:23 PM
Another discussion question....errrr, more like a series of discussion questions, I guess:

What is it about this genre that might usually turn you away from shounen shows? Basically, it could be anything, from the abundance of bad battle shonen manga/shows out there to the plethora or agonizingly bad cliches that plague most shonen series. And a little sub-question I would like to add is: What are some things that you think kill a series that has some potential to be good and would otherwise be entertaining? By that question I basically mean, what is it that some mangaka could do that could take a series that starts out OK enough and then ends up making it completely unreadable or unwatchable?

Nudity, etc. Bright, shiny animation. And uh I guess there could be a good thing as really long anime but that never works out.

Also, what are the few exceptions to you (if any exist) among battle shonen series, and why exactly do you find them to be good, or at least entertaining and bearable to watch as opposed to most other battle shonen series out there?

Shounen may be pretty much the only type of anime I watch but I'm still very picky. Good character designs is the first thing I look for. If I can't even look at the characters, I don't watch. Then it's good, well animated action, good characters and good story in that order.

Oh, and we all know that Fist of the North Star and Dragon Ball, for better or worse, are basically the main 2 titles that have influenced most modern shonen up until today. However, if any of you could pick another shonen series that most modern mangaka should take influence from in terms of its stronger aspects, which series would it be? And as far as that question goes, it could be more than one series.

Do you even have to ask?  ;)

And one final question that I have is which currently running battle manga do any of you guys find to be good? That is, of course, assuming there are any that you guys are currently following that you enjoy enough to recommend.

In this case, I have quite a few things to say myself, so I'll give my own personal answers to my own discussion questions in this thread a little bit later on.

Don't know any. I know FMA's manga ended years ago so there you go. Wait, Guyver is still around right? Might give that a try Oh and add Guyver to the list of anime mangakas should use for influence.

Master of Martial Hearts is my "so bad it's good" pick of the year, well, of last year if I watched it when it was promoted.

Quote from: Avaitor on April 19, 2011, 11:24:33 PM
I have to agree with you about characters making extended fighting storyarcs worth sitting through. I probably wouldn't enjoy the Dark Tournament arc as much as I do if the main characters weren't so well-developed and a lot of the supporting fighters also were fleshed out. I mean, you compare that to the tournament arcs in the Dragon Ball franchise, and it's like day and night. Granted, I don't think the tournament arcs in DB/DBZ were meant to be taken as seriously or were as crucial to the series, but it's still a valid comparison.

I knew you would agree with YYH. That's why I didn't get into detail as to why I chose it, since either you knew why or would just talk about it anyway. And I'm still working on something related to it, anyway. ;)

Couldn't agree more about the Dark Tournament. I would have said Naruto instead of DB though. I liked the parts of the DB tournaments I've seen.

IMO, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGxr4eWhaFk&feature=related) fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSQnp2qxzNs&feature=related) (Spoilers for Yu Yu Hakusho) is by far the best one in a shonen.

Why? The entire staging in the hospital, the set up of the mystery of who the enemy is, the clever use of skills, the themes of the arc coming to play in the battle, every character is crucial to taking down the enemy, and to top it off... The direction by Furuhara is perfect. When I think of Chapter Black, this is always the first thing that pops into my mind in how it pretty much encapsulates everything great about the series and arc in this one battle.

So yeah, that's what I want the genre to be more like. That fight.

Thank you! I have always loved the episodes between Yusuke and Doctor (in fact its so different from a typical shonen fight that I often forget that its actually technically a fight). Its all about wits and a battle of the mind, since Yusuke could stomp all over Doctor with zero effort. The fact that Doctor is smart enough to keep Yusuke at a moral dilemma, hindering him from just killing him is what makes this fight so brilliant. Its not about trading punches or using wild random powers. Its about whether Yusuke is willing to cross the line or not and take a human life, in which case he would be one step closer to being like Sensui. Truly great stuff. I'd show scenes like this to anyone doubting whether it was right of us or not to put YYH in our site's top 10 for our animation list.

Oh, BTW, Furuhara never directed YYH, he directed Rurouni Kenshin and HXH. Noriyuki Abe is credited as directed YYH though I don't know if each individual episode had different individual directors.

Oh, cool. That's nice to know! I'm not all that up on anime series directors. But the direction in those episodes are good in how they take the fight off the page and into motion.

But anyway, other than the Death Note guys, and possibly the Enigma writer, few shonen approach their battles with as much intensity as that where the #1 threat isn't actually the villain's strength, but the hero's strength.

I just realized the fight was removed from youtube (Why, I don't know, they were just clips), so here's another link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQZLMkdEAVY) (even if it's missing the Togashi-ish build up) to my favorite shonen fight.

QuoteI just realized the fight was removed from youtube (Why, I don't know, they were just clips),

Youtube seems to be really anal about removing clips from certain anime, even though they're just fights. And it's pissing me off to no end. Who the hell wants to rewatch a half-dozen episodes of Bleach and Naruto just to see their favorite fight? :whuh:

Quote from: Desensitized on August 01, 2011, 08:28:48 PM
IMO, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGxr4eWhaFk&feature=related) fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSQnp2qxzNs&feature=related) (Spoilers for Yu Yu Hakusho) is by far the best one in a shonen.

Why? The entire staging in the hospital, the set up of the mystery of who the enemy is, the clever use of skills, the themes of the arc coming to play in the battle, every character is crucial to taking down the enemy, and to top it off... The direction by Furuhara is perfect. When I think of Chapter Black, this is always the first thing that pops into my mind in how it pretty much encapsulates everything great about the series and arc in this one battle.

So yeah, that's what I want the genre to be more like. That fight.

Links don't work for me. EK did post them though,which prompted me making this avatar.

I reposted it on this page, since it was removed from youtube hates anime clips for some reason. It's the Doctor fight from YYH.

Quote from: Desensitized on August 13, 2011, 08:56:14 PM
I reposted it on this page, since it was removed from youtube hates anime clips for some reason. It's the Doctor fight from YYH.

I know, hence me talking about my avatar.

You know, I've been thinking of things that the shonen genre really needs, or at least that a shonen series can use to stand-out from the crowd and actually be good, and I came to one conclusion:

A smart main character....who isn't overpowered or an ass-hole.

Now let me stress that I'm talking specifically about battle shonen series here. Stuff like Death Note and Enigma have smart main characters but they aren't really about battles (at least not physical ones, anyways). However, as far as battle series go, how many can you think of in recent memory (or in any memory, at all) that have main characters that aren't naive but instead intelligent and witty WITHOUT being written as snobs or douche-bags? As for me, not many (there are a few, like Kenshin as an example, but its hard to think of more than that).

You see, most mangaka seem to prefer sticking to the spunky, naive kid archetype because that works well with younger audiences since they either don't know any better or don't care. The few that make smarter characters usually end up failing because they either forget to make them likable or just don't make them very interesting at all (Alan Walker from D. Gray-Man is the perfect example of the latter, since he's just so damned bland). In the worst cases they will make them too overpowered as if they always know everything, which is no fun for the reader because then there is never any challenge for the hero and thus you have no reason to care about what he does, or in other cases they just make the main character really pretentious which is equally as annoying (I hate to say it, but I consider some FMA characters to be really guilty of the latter; and I do actually consider the manga and Brotherhood to be a battle shonen at its core, even though its disguised as something different).

To me, the closest thing I've seen to someone getting the formula of the smart main character right is Nobuhiro Wakatsuki with Rurouni Kenshin, as I mentioned before, and to a bit of a lesser degree Togashi with certain parts of HXH, since usually characters other than Gon are quite intelligent, and in the instances in which he lets them become main characters of the story for a while. I'm speaking of characters such as Kurapika who got an entire arc devoted to his character, or in some instances of the Chimera Ant arc and more recently in the current manga, Killua, when he goes off by himself and is away from Gon for a while. Stuff like that is fresh to me because the characters are surprisingly insightful and interesting to watch while not coming off as complete ass-holes or something to be so unrealistically smart that they are too overpowered.

If you ask me that feature alone would got a long way towards making for a great series that feels fresh within the genre, and give the genre the kick in the pants that it needs after so many derivative and uninspired Bleach clones that come out these days.

It isn't perfect, and it has flaws, but you should give MxO a read sometime. The author found the perfect way to include full out battles, but have the main character mainly rely on his wits throughout. The series was pretty popular (it lasted about 99 chapters, anyway) but sagged in popularity because it relied too much on ecchi element at times. But the actual shonen parts were really fun.

Had he lightened up on the ecchi and introduced more villains, I think it would have been a hit. Sadly, it managed to get canceled before really taking off.

I don't mind Ecchi elements as long as they don't take precedence over actual good story-telling and interesting characters and battles. I can even stand if the Ecchi is pretty ridiculous and goes overboard if the series itself is still fun to read for its more shonen-like aspects (done sell, of course).

That's why I could put up with a series like HSDK up until the end of the DofD arc (as more of a guilty pleasure, though), because at its heart it still carried elements of a corny but classic shonen story. However once that arc was over the manga did EVERYTHING that I hate about series that rely too heavily on Ecchi and on top of that it somehow managed to make likable characters that were at least suitably 2-dimensional in an entertaining way into 1-dimensional  non-existent objects that were only suited to serving as background imagery. I swear, its as if a completely different author took over writing for the series after the DofD arc. Its kind of astounding and surprising to see how far the series fell in such a quick amount of time. Needless to say I don't read it anymore, but if I ever write an article about what a good shonen series should not do or avoid doing, I'll use HSDK as one of my primary examples.

Anwyays, as for MX0 I've heard good things about it so I plan to give it a read, some day. I should mention that in Flame of Recca there are a few surprising instances in which Recca can be kind of smart and while certainly not a genius he can be pretty insightful into reading other people's emotions or coming up with complex but effective strategies to use in battle. I kind of wish that the author of that manga made his character progress more along those lines rather than have him randomly snap in and out of being pretty clever to going back to being your typical naive shonen protagonist.

So, you know what I just realized is the main problem with 90% of currently running shonen series? The protagonists are EXTREMELY BORING characters! Honestly, I hate how every author decides to make their main character some goody-two-shoes who acts like he's above any form of sin. And no, just having them do some dirty things in comedic scenes or having them labeled as brainless oafs for not thinking and rushing into things sometimes doesn't count for shit. In order for me to care about a main character, they need to have clear flaws and weaknesses as well as strengths, rather than just being so damn perfect all the time, and they should have some things about them that are less than noble that end up having clear consequences within the story-line. It makes them more interesting especially since part of what would keep me reading it so see how they solve their problems, and I don't just mean something about their character that is merely resolved in an after-school style episode or a couple of chapters in the manga, but instead something that ends up becoming a central theme within the main story-line.

It really ticks me off because I somehow get the feeling that most shonen mangaka are under the impression that they are making these character likable, but really they are doing nothing more than goody-goody little dip-shits that bore the snot out of me or just plain annoy the fuck out of me. Either way this shit needs to stop.

Honestly, the main cast of every modern shonen doesn't seem to be written with personality in mind, but rather in "How much yaoi will this create?"

The main cast of just about every modern shonen lack ANY personality, period. I literally feel that you could take any dozen modern battle shonen series and interchange their main characters and nobody would know the difference.

The only currently running shonen series that I can think of that are exceptions to the rule aren't really modern series, either, since they have been running for a long time (as in since the 90's), and that's just plain sad. I mean, I know that people like Oda and Togashi are experienced mangaka so we can actually except their quality of work to be higher than the normal standards, but in this case newer mangaka don't even give them any standards to compare to, and people like them are among the only modern shonen writers who actually seem to know how to write an actual story with actual characters.

Well, they all have their different quirks, behavior, and mannerisms etc. The real problem with modern shounen is that not only are the main characters usually boring (no matter how much development Naruto gets, he'll never be an intersting character for me), but  they'll usually shaft characters who are actually intersting and/or have potential to develop as characters, in favor of far more boring, generic, bland-ass, one-note characters instead. Said characters usually end up being incredibly popular for God knows what reason. Naruto and Bleach are huge offenders of this.

Quote from: Rynnec on January 28, 2012, 08:59:50 PM
Well, they all have their different quirks, behavior, and mannerisms etc. The real problem with modern shounen is that not only are the main characters usually boring (no matter how much development Naruto gets, he'll never be an intersting character for me), but  they'll usually shaft characters who are actually intersting and/or have potential to develop as characters, in favor of far more boring, generic, bland-ass, one-note characters instead. Said characters usually end up being incredibly popular for God knows what reason. Naruto and Bleach are huge offenders of this.

Yes, I've seen this a lot in anime in the last few years, not just shonen.

I don't know when exactly the interesting characters were pushed off to be one note or one shot characters, but I mean the characters are the #1 reason why people watch anything. There must be a reason that anime is getting more and more niche all over the world every year, and the lack of dynamic characters really contributes to it.

But it's not just newer authors, either. Rumiko Takahashi has been going for decades, and ever since Ranma 1/2 she hasn't been able to write a half interesting character. Togashi under-utilizes and kills off anyone not in the main four (or I should say main two, huh?) and Watsuki hasn't written a compelling character since Einishi. (Good sure, but nothing great)

We need some new blood out there who can reconnect with the roots of the genre and modernize them at the same time. Because I'm starting to think the oldest manga anyone in this industry has ever read was One Piece, and that's just missing out on a ton.

I actually kind it find of funny how any time a side-character in HXH starts getting really interesting, unless they are a villain they are sure to be dead. Its as if Togashi says to himself when writing: "Oh Gosh, this character is actually getting really interesting and compelling, and is even more interesting than the main characters of this series....well, we certainly can't have that; I'll have him killed off in the most gruesome way possible in the next chapter. There. Problem Solved!" :sly:

No, but seriously, it pisses me off as well. Still, even then, I do feel that Togashi can make his main characters interesting, at least. Killua has been there since the beginning of the story, and IMO he's never been dull for me, and continues to be one of the most interesting characters that Togashi has written, so in that regard at least he can still make interesting main characters with tons of personality and background. There are plenty of things to complain about in his writing, to be sure, but you can't deny that for as old of a mangaka as he is he's still sadly far more creative than any of the new "talent" (and I do use that world lightly, here) that is coming into the manga industry.

That said, I do agree that we need a fresh and new author who actually knows how to make a good story structure like in old shonen series and combine it with fresh and modern characters that actually have some sense of depth and personality to them. I'm not asking for anything Shakespeare level here, but I do think it would be nice to have a main character that has more than just 2-dimensions to them.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on January 28, 2012, 08:08:20 PM
So, you know what I just realized is the main problem with 90% of currently running shonen series? The protagonists are EXTREMELY BORING characters! Honestly, I hate how every author decides to make their main character some goody-two-shoes who acts like he's above any form of sin. And no, just having them do some dirty things in comedic scenes or having them labeled as brainless oafs for not thinking and rushing into things sometimes doesn't count for shit. In order for me to care about a main character, they need to have clear flaws and weaknesses as well as strengths, rather than just being so damn perfect all the time, and they should have some things about them that are less than noble that end up having clear consequences within the story-line. It makes them more interesting especially since part of what would keep me reading it so see how they solve their problems, and I don't just mean something about their character that is merely resolved in an after-school style episode or a couple of chapters in the manga, but instead something that ends up becoming a central theme within the main story-line.

It really ticks me off because I somehow get the feeling that most shonen mangaka are under the impression that they are making these character likable, but really they are doing nothing more than goody-goody little dip-shits that bore the snot out of me or just plain annoy the fuck out of me. Either way this shit needs to stop.

Amen, brother.

So, I was browsing through youtube watching various clips of anime fights in shonen series that I hold in high-regard (yeah, I do stuff like that sometimes), and then I came upon this gem of of a fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e58S2n5Ue64) that I haven't seen in ages (in animated form, that is, as I've recently been re-reading the manga a lot, lately).

You know, on top of everything else we've mentioned on this thread about "battle shonen" series, I realized that hardly anything was discussed about one of the key elements of what makes a battle shonen a battle shonen, and that's quite bluntly, well....battles. Its something that people commonly look down on as mindless and boring in most modern shonen, but its easy to forget that they were once highlights of shonen series. And honestly, when they are done right they can be really intense and exciting to watch.

That battle I linked to from Rurouni Kenshin is a prime example of how to do a proper battle in a shonen series. First off the animation is really fluid and top-notch for a mostly low-budget adaptation like RK. It also shows a lot of care and attention was put into translating the action from the manga while not making it feel necessarily like a manga, fully taking advantage of the fact that this was being portrayed in an animated medium. What I like most about it, though, is that its short and to the point and doesn't drag on for multiple episodes, but it still contains the core elements of what makes a shonen fight unique among action scenes in comics and animation, and that's stuff like clearly slowing down the action to point out elements of strategy (but not over-explaining the hell out of stuff, which is a trap that most shonen series fall into). I also like how it catches you off guard in many instances having one character seemingly having the upper hand only for the opponent to strategically turn the tables with a hidden surprise attack that actually feels well thought out and works in the context of the fight, rather than seeming like BS that came out of nowhere (another problem that most modern shonen series have). On top of all that you get a sense of extreme combat depth, like the opponents are evenly matched and have tons of skill and are really serious life-threats to one another.

To me, on top of everything else most modern shonen series especially fail at getting the battles right. I honestly dread reading them in most cases because they are just derivative and boring and the more I see them the more I see how lazy mangaka are getting with one of the most important elements of these types of shonen series. There is actually and art and level of talent that goes into scripting a good battle scene, believe it or not, and the fights in series like Rurouni Kenshin and Yu  Yu Hakusho, among other things, are among the examples of how to get it right and keep the fighting actually interesting.

I've read hundreds of chapters worth of Naruto, Bleach, D. Gray-Man, and various other popular shonen series and honestly I can say that battles in those series are rarely ever better than snooze-worthy.

Now of course Rurouni Kenshin is just one example, but I can easily link to tons of great fights that are great and interesting to watch for numerous different reasons. That said I think I got the point across best with that particular fight scene.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on February 19, 2012, 01:21:29 PM
So, I was browsing through youtube watching various clips of anime fights in shonen series that I hold in high-regard (yeah, I do stuff like that sometimes), and then I came upon this gem of of a fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e58S2n5Ue64) that I haven't seen in ages (in animated form, that is, as I've recently been re-reading the manga a lot, lately).

You know, on top of everything else we've mentioned on this thread about "battle shonen" series, I realized that hardly anything was discussed about one of the key elements of what makes a battle shonen a battle shonen, and that's quite bluntly, well....battles. Its something that people commonly look down on as mindless and boring in most modern shonen, but its easy to forget that they were once highlights of shonen series. And honestly, when they are done right they can be really intense and exciting to watch.

That battle I linked to from Rurouni Kenshin is a prime example of how to do a proper battle in a shonen series. First off the animation is really fluid and top-notch for a mostly low-budget adaptation like RK. It also shows a lot of care and attention was put into translating the action from the manga while not making it feel necessarily like a manga, fully taking advantage of the fact that this was being portrayed in an animated medium. What I like most about it, though, is that its short and to the point and doesn't drag on for multiple episodes, but it still contains the core elements of what makes a shonen fight unique among action scenes in comics and animation, and that's stuff like clearly slowing down the action to point out elements of strategy (but not over-explaining the hell out of stuff, which is a trap that most shonen series fall into). I also like how it catches you off guard in many instances having one character seemingly having the upper hand only for the opponent to strategically turn the tables with a hidden surprise attack that actually feels well thought out and works in the context of the fight, rather than seeming like BS that came out of nowhere (another problem that most modern shonen series have). On top of all that you get a sense of extreme combat depth, like the opponents are evenly matched and have tons of skill and are really serious life-threats to one another.

To me, on top of everything else most modern shonen series especially fail at getting the battles right. I honestly dread reading them in most cases because they are just derivative and boring and the more I see them the more I see how lazy mangaka are getting with one of the most important elements of these types of shonen series. There is actually and art and level of talent that goes into scripting a good battle scene, believe it or not, and the fights in series like Rurouni Kenshin and Yu  Yu Hakusho, among other things, are among the examples of how to get it right and keep the fighting actually interesting.

I've read hundreds of chapters worth of Naruto, Bleach, D. Gray-Man, and various other popular shonen series and honestly I can say that battles in those series are rarely ever better than snooze-worthy.

Now of course Rurouni Kenshin is just one example, but I can easily link to tons of great fights that are great and interesting to watch for numerous different reasons. That said I think I got the point across best with that particular fight scene.

I KNEW IT! I remember you saying you were reading RK and I looked up this video before and recognized it just from seeing best anime fights in my tab. This is the best part of the best part of Rurouni Kenshin imo. The most fluid fight in the series. RK neededmore well animated fights.

Yeah, it really is a shame that more anime fights (even in RK) can't be as fluidly animated as this one was. I mean, back when I saw it on Toonami (back when I wasn't even a fan of RK), when I first saw this episode the action in it blew me away. Before this point I hadn't seen ANYTHING even close to this in terms of action scenes in an animated series. It wasn't just the animation of course, as even in the manga it was still a great fight just for how intense it was. I mean, Saito actually ends up using his belt as a weapon for crying out loud, and then tries to break Kenshin's neck after his sword breaks. Shonen fights just can't come close to this level of intensity no matter how hard they try, these days.

Instead they try to instead fights by pulling powers out of their ass. TIME FOR CHIDORI X12 NO. 45!

Among the more recent stuff I've been watching (which is still some years old):
Fate/stay night has some decent battles, but still employs quite a few cliches like the samurai finishing move and the blade licker. :bleh: But one of the characters uses Yusuke's spirit gun.  :thumbup:
Fairy Tail has battles in the manga many of which end up in knock outs but whenever I read one of them I picture the anime being much more appropriate in presentation.

I always thought that Fate/Stay Night was more like a Seinen with Shounen elements. Similar to Trigun (which did start off as a shounen) and the later seasons of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha (which is even more shounen-like).

The only shounen maga I've been reading (Naruto and Bleach I only read spoilers and only occasionly read chapters if they're interesting enough) are Psyren(though I haven't read a chapter in months) and Negima. Granted, the latter doesn't become a full-on shounen until 10-volumes in apparently, but the series takes a rise in quality whenever it does focus more on its shounen elements that it's almost painful whenver it goes back to its mind-numbing harem aspects.

Yep, it's a seinen, even a harem at times, but it's also centered about a battle royale, and seems to be more tastefully done than, say, Sekirei.

Quote from: Rynnec on March 27, 2012, 02:19:09 PM
I always thought that Fate/Stay Night was more like a Seinen with Shounen elements.

The first two routes are most definitely not seinen. Fate and UBW are standard battle shounen stories with prominent harem elements (especially in Fate). Heaven's Feel and Fate/Zero could arguably be considered seinen due to their more brutal violence and inclusion of actual romance elements instead of harem shit, but I'd say they're closer to just being darker than average shounen stories a la Death Note. The pornographic sex scenes in the VN do betray its target audience categorization somewhat, but at its heart F/SN is a battle shounen with lots of talking.

ANGUS! Where has the only person I respect here been?

I've been alright. Editing Wikipedia articles and hanging out on MAL these months since I can't seem to do much on tv.com when they totally screwed up access to forums for me.

F/SN main guy has some decent development, even if most the story arcs aren't terribly new. Funny that you mention Trigun, I was thinking the same thing about a character who tries to stick to his principles when everything else around him changes. I find when the characters help get you immersed in their world, like you could be that actual character and come up with resourceful solutions, that gets to be fun, especially something like Initial D where you'd want to hop in and drive down some mountain roads.

Oh lord. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-04-02/crunchyroll-adds-rock-lee-spinoff-tv-anime-series) :srs:

Eh, not too suprising really. Naruto's been doing rather well on CR, so it's only natural that they'd pick up the spin-off. No matter how bad it is.

I don't mean Crunchy Roll picking it up, I mean the fact that it exists at all. :lol:

Ah, my mistake then.XD

While I can't properly judge it without having seen/read it, from what I've been hearing, I'm pretty sure its humour won't settle with me (apparently, a dog pees on a girls head).

Quote from: Rynnec on April 02, 2012, 03:18:41 PM
(apparently, a dog pees on a girls head).

And this is the type of material found in a spin-off series that runs specifically in a magazine marketed towards little kids (primarily between 8-12) in Japan?

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on April 02, 2012, 03:52:43 PM

Quote from: Rynnec on April 02, 2012, 03:18:41 PM
(apparently, a dog pees on a girls head).

And this is the type of material found in a spin-off series that runs specifically in a magazine marketed towards little kids (primarily between 8-12) in Japan?

BUT IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE BODILY FLUIDS

I guess pee jokes are funnier than boob-service for that demographic.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-07-21/kishimoto/naruto-manga-to-continue-longer-than-1.5-years (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-07-21/kishimoto/naruto-manga-to-continue-longer-than-1.5-years)

:srs:

Well, this series is his main source of income, so who can blame him. I mean, I don't like this series....at all, and I don't really think that Kishimoto is a very talented mangaka (to be fair, though, he's miles better than Kubo and is far from the worst modern shonen writer), so it makes sense that he would want to keep his cash cow Naruto running for as long as possible. Of course even after it ends he'll still make money in royalties and such, but really it'll be hard for him to break in with a new series. I mean, his name status as a mangaka will help him a lot in making anything he does initially popular, but if his writing is as stale as ever with any new series he tries to make, it'll still fall flat in under a year.

True, but I don't want to see this series drag on longer than it needs to. Naruto's current arc seems to be the endgame of the entire manga, and while I understand wanting to keep the series running as long as possible for income reasons, at the same time, dragging out the series too long will only hurt it in the long run. I mean, this isn't like Bleach's Aizen arc where there were still characters unaccounted for and mysteries and plot points left unresolved. Kishimoto seems to have at least some semblance of what he's doing here (even though I don't agree with it, and the execution leaves a lot to be desired). I guess he can delay the final battle so he can resolve any remaining plot threads and whatnot (which would be much preferable rather than stretching out the final battles for chapters on ends), but I dunno, I just can't see this whole thing lasting longer than 1.5 years.

Honestly, that's the way I felt about 2 years ago when the series was seemingly "gearing up for the endgames," which is what a lot of people were claiming as well, at the time. But, look at it now. Kishimoto brought up this whole resurrection plot-line and created a whole war out of it and dragged it out for well over a year. Now its done, and it seems like stuff can finally come to a resolution soon, but he's finding every little thing way he can to prolong the series even longer. In this case, he made it so that all of a sudden Madara can choose to stay resurrected even though the resurrection spell has been stopped. Its just really lame and on-the-spot pieces of writing like that which really pisses me off about this series. This was clearly a move done to have threatening villain around for powerful characters to fight for even longer. I was actually getting excited (yeah, excited for something in Naruto, imagine that :-\ ) at the prospect of that particular battle finally ending (since, you know, I think Kishimoto sucks at making fights interesting in the first place), but instead he's still forcing it to go on. I guess it just infuriates me because I kind of force myself to continue reading this manga out of habit, but I absolutely dread reading it since its just so goddamn boring to read these days (not that it was good before, but at least it used to be passable).

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 22, 2012, 12:58:21 AM
Honestly, that's the way I felt about 2 years ago when the series was seemingly "gearing up for the endgames," which is what a lot of people were claiming as well, at the time. But, look at it now. Kishimoto brought up this whole resurrection plot-line and created a whole war out of it and dragged it out for well over a year. Now its done, and it seems like stuff can finally come to a resolution soon, but he's finding every little thing way he can to prolong the series even longer. In this case, he made it so that all of a sudden Madara can choose to stay resurrected even though the resurrection spell has been stopped. Its just really lame and on-the-spot pieces of writing like that which really pisses me off about this series. This was clearly a move done to have threatening villain around for powerful characters to fight for even longer. I was actually getting excited (yeah, excited for something in Naruto, imagine that :-\ ) at the prospect of that particular battle finally ending, but instead he's still forcing it to go on. I guess it just infuriates me because I kind of force myself to continue reading this manga out of habit, but I absolutely dread reading it since its just so goddamn boring to read these days (not that it was good before, but at least it used to be passable).

Wow, that's really bad. Though, I guess it's better than it was during the whole "Year of Sasuke" mess (Sasuke's whole character arc is a mess, honestly, but I get what Kishi was trying to do with him). I didn't mind the whole boss rush-esque ressurection war, because it allowed us to see a few characters fight one last time, but knowing this series, it probably managed to screw it up.

Quotesince, you know, I think Kishimoto sucks at making fights interesting in the first place

Honestly? For being two of the most popular Manga series in the US right now, Naruto and Bleach's fights are pretty hit-and-miss for me. I think the problem with both of them are that they waste too much time with exposition when neither author knows how to do exposition very well. There's also a lot of general padding in said fights, and the actual fights themselves are rather slow-paced. Now, their anime adaptations could've (and should've) remedied these issues, but instead they leave them as is, and their problems become more apparent in animated form. IMO, Naruto and Bleach fights are at their best when they're fast and furious, and have little to no exposition.

As for fights in other modern-shounen, I haven't watched/read many One Piece fights, so I can't judge their quality. Same goes for Hitman Reborn, Kenichi, Blue Excorcist, and D-Grayman (though, I did skim a fight that seemed serviceable enough). The fights I've read in Negima were pretty good, and the chapters I've read of Psyren show some promise in their fights. Both of their authors can actually pull off strategy and exposition well, and know how to give their fights the right mix of flash, and substance.

Hunter X Hunter has had some really good fights, as well, but Togashi is an expert of pulling off shonen-style fights with tons of exposition and still making it really interesting. Though, even he succumbs to that modern writing syndrome of either making a fight with an overpowered villain that isn't interesting or making a fight take way too long and dragging it out. Still, even then he's still got a lot of good material in his writing in general, and the strategies in his fights can always be followed really well without seeming too convoluted (as long as you don't consider the bizarre assortment of powers and abilities that everyone has to be convoluted in and of itself :D ).

Actually, speaking of Togashi and Hunter X Hunter, while I do like Togashi as a writer on the whole, and like HXH as a series on the whole, I also have a lot of problems with both Togashi and HXH. The thing about HXH is that since its more ambitious than his other works (which mainly consists of just....YYH) its prone to have more potential flaws, IMO, and it does. There are inconsistencies in narrative, convoluted plot points, overpowered villains, and just general sections of the manga that drag. However if you try telling this to any other HXH fan (and for the record I DETEST the HXH fan-base), they'll just defend everything that Togashi does and deem him as perfect, and if you don't like it then you just don't "get" his style of writing. I had one hardcore fan dismissing every bad part of Togashi's writing that I pointed out as just him being an eccentric writer, and using that to excuse him, or even worse say that its actually good writing. It pisses me the fuck off because eccentric or not, there is still good writing and bad writing, and while most of Togashi's writing is still good, he has written quite a bit of bad material within his overly long Chimera Ant arc. I mean, its his most ambitious arc, but it pisses me off at how so many HXH fans blindly call it the best arc just because of that. To me, the York Shin City arc is the best arc in the series. Its not the most ambitious (though it was at the time), but its still suitably dark, has a surprising amount of character depth, has great and memorable villains, and is constantly engaging and has consistently strong writing. Something like the Chimera Ant arc is what I like to call a roller-coaster arc, because it constantly alternates between having highs and lows, IMO.

If Naruto lasts beyond the current arc then I think it's going to plummet in the ratings. What Bakuman said about reversi is right, sometimes the end is the end.

What Kishimoto is doing, though, is essentially dragging out the same arc over an insanely long period of time. Really, this whole ordeal of the end of the Shinobi world is really just one major arc that has been going on for YEARS. That'd be fine if Kishimoto could handle a really long continues story-line like that, but he can't (Naoki Urasawa is probably the only mangaka who could carry out a continuous story for hundreds of chapters and still keep it interesting). What should have essentially ended years ago has been dragged out far longer than even someone like Toriyama would ever dare to attempt doing, and Kishimoto doing this is to me a sign of his desperation to still stay prominent in the shonen manga industry. I have a feeling that Naruto's popularity was just a major fluke on his part, and he realizes that, which is why he wants to milk it for as long as possible and doesn't want to attempt trying to make a new successful original series. I know that may sound harsh, but I honestly can see no other reason for why he would drag this story out for so long when it doesn't even need to be close to this long.

Actually, I heard that after Naruto, he wanted to do some sort of Mafia manga or something like that (and he's had this Mafia story idea since before Naruto, so it likely preceeds KHR as well). Last time I heard this was about 08/09-ish, so something must've happened since then for him to stretch Naruto out this long. Either he lost interest in doing this Mafia-shounen thing, or SJ is deliberately stretching out Naruto as long as possible because they don't want to take a risk with replacing it with a new manga (even if it is by the same author).

It's kinda funny, 4 years ago people were saying that Kishimoto was half-assing Naruto so he could wrap it up and start working on Mario (the afformented Mafia manga).

Quote from: Rynnec on July 24, 2012, 09:40:42 PM
It's kinda funny, 4 years ago people were saying that Kishimoto was half-assing Naruto so he could wrap it up and start working on Mario (the afformented Mafia manga).

I get the most unintentionally hilarious image in my head of a mafia manga with a main character (presumably) called Mario. :>

The thing is, I'm wondering if a "mafia" manga would by Kishimoto would actually be something cool or something that just uses the term mafia because it makes it sound like its deeper and darker than it is, but its really just a cool term to use to describe another team of generic super-powered goodie-two-shoes. That's the trend of shonen, as Bakuman itself pointed out. Mainstream shonen typically just have a group of people that the author call a certain thing to distinguish them from every other generic team of generic shonen hero characters out there. In Naruto its ninjas. In Bleach its Shinigami. In Hitman Reborn its "hitmen" and "mafia." None of these things even come remotely close to exploring the cultural implications of what they claim their heroes to be a part of. They just do it for "fashion" and "style" rather than any form of substance.

At least in a series like YYH among other stand-out shonen the groups are of a fictional role made up by the author, which at least leads to come creativity, with YYH being Spirit Detectives, or HXH being Hunters. Make no mistake, though, these could have easily also just been generic teams of good guys, but in YYH the characters are actually likable and have personality to them more than just carboard stereotype of what people who mock shonen always thought of the genre. And in HXH, as much as I hate to say it since I'm getting a little annoyed with Togashi fans, I have to give the guy credit as he basically downright deconstructs the whole traditional "shonen group" or "team" ideal and really explores how characters have their own personal motives in a large organization, and how even among the smaller more close-knit group of characters, they realistically aren't always going to stick together and obviously split off to pursue their own interests and goals, and not all of these "goals" are happy ones. Just look at Kurapika, and look at how getting closer to achieving his goal doesn't even bring him happiness. At the end of his major character ark at York Shin City, he's only gotten deeper into the dark depths of the criminal underground world, and you can tell that he seems to be pursuing his vengeance more because he feels like he needs to rather than him really wanting to be in that dark of a place.

Anyways, before I get totally off-topic, I'll get back to my main point, which is that more shonen really need to get down to the nitty-gritty and truly explore the potential depths of what can be seen with a large group of characters working together in some kind of ogranization. Superhero stories have done this marvelously. Justice League, for instance, really did a lot in showing just how dangerous a large organization of superheroes could be when working in unison. Sure, they could accomplish a lot, but episodes like "A Better World" asked the question of whether what they accomplished was really for a good world, or if it could lead to something much worse than if they just let a few villains get away every now and then. I have yet to see a shonen tackle something like corruption among a group or a group of characters having to deal with corruption among larger groups (well, actually One Piece HAS done the latter, but it could still be done so much better than it has been).

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 24, 2012, 10:15:11 PM

Quote from: Rynnec on July 24, 2012, 09:40:42 PM
It's kinda funny, 4 years ago people were saying that Kishimoto was half-assing Naruto so he could wrap it up and start working on Mario (the afformented Mafia manga).

I get the most unintentionally hilarious image in my head of a mafia manga with a main character (presumably) called Mario. :>


The thing is, I'm wondering if a "mafia" manga would by Kishimoto would actually be something cool or something that just uses the term mafia because it makes it sound like its deeper and darker than it is, but its really just a cool term to use to describe another team of generic super-powered goodie-two-shoes. That's the trend of shonen, as Bakuman itself pointed out. Mainstream shonen typically just have a group of people that the author call a certain thing to distinguish them from every other generic team of generic shonen hero characters out there. In Naruto its ninjas. In Bleach its Shinigami. In Hitman Reborn its "hitmen" and "mafia." None of these things even come remotely close to exploring the cultural implications of what they claim their heroes to be a part of. They just do it for "fashion" and "style" rather than any form of substance.

Going from  the sketch he made (http://animemedia.ign.com/anime/image/article/885/885962/the-memory-of-akira-20080702045935847-000.jpg), it could go either way.  That trend you described is actually pretty prevalent in most media aimed at kids, but shounen manga is a pretty big offender of it.

QuoteAnyways, before I get totally off-topic, I'll get back to my main point, which is that more shonen really need to get down to the nitty-gritty and truly explore the potential depths of what can be seen with a large group of characters working together in some kind of ogranization. Superhero stories have done this marvelously. Justice League, for instance, really did a lot in showing just how dangerous a large organization of superheroes could be when working in unison. Sure, they could accomplish a lot, but episodes like "A Better World" asked the question of whether what they accomplished was really for a good world, or if it could lead to something much worse than if they just let a few villains get away every now and then. I have yet to see a shonen tackle something like corruption among a group or a group of characters having to deal with corruption among larger groups (well, actually One Piece HAS done the latter, but it could still be done so much better than it has been).

What's annoying about Naruto and Bleach is that they show seedy elements of their respective organizations, but hardly anything is done with them. It gets pretty ridculous in Bleach when you have the Seireitei making all of these seedy decisions, and let clearly evil individuals like Mayuri Kurotsuchi work for them, or have one of their characters brand one of Ichigo's friends as a traitor for some(rather asinine) reasons, but Ichigo still seems to be at peace with them, even though he has every right to act suspicous (it's even worse in the anime's filler, where most of the villains have some damn good reasons to want to destroy the Soul Society). And since these characters are popular (and god only knows why, since a vast majority of them are rather bland and generic, and only a handful of them have any sort of charisma or personality to make up for their genericness) hardly anything is done to villainize them, because that would get fans' panties in a bunch (to Bleach's credit, they're kinda sorta addressing this issue in the current story arc, but since this is Bleach...)

Now Naruto is a lot better in handling the Shinobi Government's activities, but apparently Kishimoto's taken the typical route of "the main character changes their shady ways because he's super special awesome!". Which, if true, is complete bollocks.

I'd love to see more shounen have storylines similar to the ones you described. S-CRY-ed tries to do something similar, and these aren't anime or manga, but corruption of a large organization is actually one of the thems of the Megaman X and Megaman Zero games. There's also Fullmetal Alchemist, to an extent.

Ahh, sweet, an S-CRY-Ed mention.

Sucks to hear that Bleach goes nowhere with handling the Soul Society's corruption. I've seen very little of the show, like no more than the first 40 episodes and random episodes after that, but I thought one thing the show did good was mention that the Soul Society was possibly shady here and there. Sounds like they couldn't even do that right. From how repetitive the later seasons seem, the show seems to be nothing more than bad YYH fanfiction.

In light of recent happenings in Naruto...

Offscreen fight-resolutions: Hate'em or are indifferent to them?

Off-screen never works, bro. You gotta fucking show your story, not tell it.

More often than not, a very lazy solution.

Depends if I liked the characters or not, or how "epic" of a match it has the potential to be. And yeah, I'm kind of pissed we didn't get to see that. The anime will probably dwell on it, for sure, but considering who all was fighting, it's disappointing.

I agree that it depends on who was fighting. If it was between say, two minor/supporting characters with little to no bearing on the plot, then I don't think anyone would mind that fight happening mostly off-screen. However, if it's between incredibly powerful individual's in a highstakes battle, then we damn well better see that shit resolved on-screen.

It depends, but no- I'd rather see it.

I'd also like for fights to not last dozens of chapters (I always cringe when a final battle starts because you KNOW they'll drag it out), and instead I'd rather the actual plot to climax around the fight and not simply be a tie on the end of it.

And when you reveal that your #10 guy is actually #0, showing how the motherfucker gets beat would be nice, no matter how much your story is sucking, because the guy is #0, damn it.

Speaking of overly long fights, it'd be nice if writers would just focus on one fight at a time and not cut away to other fights when the previous one was getting good.

Quote from: Nel on September 18, 2012, 01:32:26 AM
And when you reveal that your #10 guy is actually #0, showing how the motherfucker gets beat would be nice, no matter how much your story is sucking, because the guy is #0, damn it.

Instead we get treated to...battles between low-tier minor characters. But that's okay, because they're popular!

I'm also not fond of when certain characters lose every fight because of poor writing. Sort of like how Naruto treated Rock Lee for instance who really had no business losing most of the time, but did just for dramatic effect. How about making the bishie the punching bag for once? Heck, Kurama did it.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 18, 2012, 01:41:07 AM
I'm also not fond of when certain characters lose every fight because of poor writing. Sort of like how Naruto treated Rock Lee for instance who really had no business losing most of the time, but did just for dramatic effect. How about making the bishie the punching bag for once? Heck, Kurama did it.

Kakazu's defeat. I have been recently catching up through the dvd releases, and I loved that arc, Shikamaru's development (episode 82 was a very pleasant surprise), the villain team actually being hilarious, the great animation during the fight... but while I wanted to see a stronger, more competent Naruto, him defeating Kakazu like that was bullshit. The guy's giving them hell, reveals he's like 90 or something, showing how much experience he has on them, and falls for the oldest trick in the book after barely two attacks by the kid. Uuugh.

I get Kishimoto was trying to show off how powerful Naruto's new technique was, but couldn't he find a better way to use it against Kakuzu? Or use it against someone he's already fought like Deidara instead?

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 18, 2012, 01:41:07 AM
I'm also not fond of when certain characters lose every fight because of poor writing. Sort of like how Naruto treated Rock Lee for instance who really had no business losing most of the time, but did just for dramatic effect. How about making the bishie the punching bag for once? Heck, Kurama did it.

Chad and Renji. :srs:

Naruto fell apart prety fast around the Chase Sasuke arc and did not improve with part 2. It was a shame because it did have the potential.

But Bleach... why do you need 40 characters that do nothing but fight and 30 more that lose all the time?

Meh, I've pretty much enjoyed anything involving Akatsuki barring some wasted potential (Deidara, Konan, how badly they all suck when resurrected), at least they all have pretty much been able to make impacts individually and were all worthy of being in that group. I don't really like either part more than the other.

The Espada have some sweet designs, but the only guy I actually liked from their team is Barragan, because he was genuinely awesome, and his power was horrific, even if his defeat sucked. The others... well, none of them felt all that distinguishable in abilities except for how powerful they were, and a good chunk of them just fight and die, without even affecting the story in some way.

Had Kubo followed his original plan of having each of Ichigo's friends getting a mini-arc to themselves before moving on to Soul Society, then the problem wouldn't have been quite as bad. But once again, SJ editors had to rush things and demand to move on to the boring bishounen.

As for Naruto; Sakura's "character arc" is where I really began to see it for how badly written it is.

Quote from: Nel on September 18, 2012, 02:02:11 AM
Meh, I've pretty much enjoyed anything involving Akatsuki barring some wasted potential (Deidara, Konan, how badly they all suck when resurrected), at least they all have pretty much been able to make impacts individually and were all worthy of being in that group. I don't really like either part more than the other.

The Espada have some sweet designs, but the only guy I actually liked from their team is Barragan, because he was genuinely awesome, and his power was horrific, even if his defeat sucked. The others... well, none of them felt all that distinguishable in abilities except for how powerful they were, and a good chunk of them just fight and die, without even affecting the story in some way.

Grimmjow is my personal favorite (Starkk is cool as well). Too bad Kubo forgot about his existence until recently.

I do think the very beginning of Bleach had potential, but it never had the chance to be fleshed out beyond fight after fight and giving his friends powers that were never properly explored (Why is Chad even in the story?) for 100 soul reapers and 700 hollow variants.

Naruto sort of had a good pace near the beginning, but Bleach has always had pretty terrible pacing despite its early potential. I don't think Kubo was ready to write a mainstream shonen, as the way he has made Bleach drag on longer and longer shows it.

Honestly, what I wanted was what I originally expected to happen when I first watched the show: Aizen gets away, Soul Society can't handle the guy or his new Espada, and they all fade into the background as Ichigo, Uryu, Chad, Orihime, and possibly Tatsuki (did I mention I always liked that character), his sisters, and a few of their other friends basically discovered their powers, and had to become stronger than Soul Society to defeat Aizen. I would have loved that. Instead, I get to watch Hitsugaya fighting a pair of tits that he wasn't supposed to stand a chance against in the first place.

That's actually where I thought it was going, too. That seemed to be the obvious direction where it would go, but he sort of stayed in his safety zone after Aizen got away and kept basically doing the same arc over and over.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 18, 2012, 02:14:06 AM
I do think the very beginning of Bleach had potential, but it never had the chance to be fleshed out beyond fight after fight and giving his friends powers that were never properly explored (Why is Chad even in the story?) for 100 soul reapers and 700 hollow variants.

Naruto sort of had a good pace near the beginning, but Bleach has always had pretty terrible pacing despite its early potential. I don't think Kubo was ready to write a mainstream shonen, as the way he has made Bleach drag on longer and longer shows it.

Considering his previous series (Zombie Powder) was cancelled after some unspecified breakdown, you're probably right.

I think whatever problem's that plagued Kubo when writing Zombie Powder continue to thrive in Bleach, and he most likely realized this sometime during the Hueco Mundo arc (as that's where things started to become really noticeable), unfortunately, by that time Bleach has proven itself to be too popular to discontinue, so Kubo was in way too deep to back out. At least, this is my theory for Bleach's jumping of the shark.

Quote from: Nel on September 18, 2012, 02:14:29 AM
Honestly, what I wanted was what I originally expected to happen when I first watched the show: Aizen gets away, Soul Society can't handle the guy or his new Espada, and they all fade into the background as Ichigo, Uryu, Chad, Orihime, and possibly Tatsuki (did I mention I always liked that character), his sisters, and a few of their other friends basically discovered their powers, and had to become stronger than Soul Society to defeat Aizen. I would have loved that. Instead, I get to watch Hitsugaya fighting a pair of tits that he wasn't supposed to stand a chance against in the first place.

Either the Arrancar arc shouldn't have started so soon, or HM shouldn't have been so damn long.

Quote from: Rynnec on September 18, 2012, 01:14:37 AM
In light of recent happenings in Naruto...

Offscreen fight-resolutions: Hate'em or are indifferent to them?

Is this for real? Especially if you mean like how Saiyuki did it...

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 18, 2012, 01:56:08 AM
Naruto fell apart prety fast around the Chase Sasuke arc and did not improve with part 2. It was a shame because it did have the potential.

But Bleach... why do you need 40 characters that do nothing but fight and 30 more that lose all the time?

Bleach has no redeeming qualities. I just consider it bad Yu yu Hakusho fan fiction.

The sad thing is that I believe I've actually even read YYH fan fiction that's more interesting than any story-arc from Bleach.

That's sad.

I wish the show loved up to the potential of it's first episode. I still stand by saying it's the show's best episode. It's the only one that's funny, it doesn't have a drawn out fight or time split between far too many characters and it's actually interesting.

Speaking of Bleach, I came across a link to This article (http://bleach.bugs3.com/ichigo.php#compare2) on Ichigo. While it did put a few things into perspective for me, it also reinforces the idea that while the ideas of his character development are good, it's the execution that leaves a lot to be desired.

But what really set me off is the first paragraph, it's made very clear that the writer hasn't read much shounen other than the Big 3 and DBZ (and possibly a few other modern mainstream shounen like DGrayman). When you have only those manga to compare to, then of course Ichigo would look better in comparison.

I think my problem with that series of posts (which is what it is as stated at the top of the page, rather than an actual article) is that while the author of them does a decent enough job of backing up his claims of Ichigo's actual character development with examples and such, it doesn't do anything to convince me that he's actually a well-written character. He's still mostly bland and boring, and as Rynnec pointed out, its clear that the author of these posts hasn't really read many shonen manga to compare Bleach to. There are a plethora of other mainstream shonen series, both old and new, that at least have the same level of basic character development that Ichigo goes through, however in some cases they are just handled much better through via far more talented writing from more experienced or more creative mangaka. Yoshihiro Togashi in particular can masterfully develop his characters, and with the exception of the latter half of the Chimera Ant arc, he can do so with a crafty sense of subtlety that doesn't just blatantly point out the gradual changes that his characters go through over time.

With Bleach, for anything interesting that happens with the characters, I feel that it is immediately hindered by sloppy writing for both the actual story and most of the other supporting characters, but who can blame Kubo for screwing up so much with them when he has so damn many characters introduced at once. Managing all of those characters and keeping other consistent would be a tough job for anyone. The problem is that its Kubo's fault for just forcing out more characters than he could ever handle in such short amounts of time. This is where I feel more mangaka, shonen or otherwise, should take ques from Naoki Urasawa. If you want to have a grand story with lots of characters while also keeping consistent character development and depth for most of them, then you need to take a close look at how Uraswa handles his characters and gradually introduce them one after another, and if need be switch from one main character to another and tell the story surrounding them. However the transitions must make sense rather than being abrupt (though Uraswa is guilty of doing this himself at least a few times in both Monster and 20th Century Boys), and they must have a way of connecting back to the stories following the various other main characters in the series.

This is of course very hard to accomplish and takes an extremely skilled, experienced, and talented writer. Of course, that's why people like Urasawa are so highly revered in the first place, because they are a rare-breed of talent that can back up their grand stories and numerous characters with consistently high quality. Now it'd be unfair to compare Bleach, a weekly serialized shonen series, to the more sparsely released material from Urasawa who clearly has less limitations on what he can write based on his core demographic being older audiences, but it certainly doesn't exclude Bleach from being compared to other long-running shonen series that can do what it does and do it far better while being placed under the same constraints. I may be biased, but I still say that Yu Yu Hakusho nailed down the "modern" shonen formula perfectly far before series like Bleach were even conceptualized, and to me at least it still does it better than any other long-running shonen series that I have read.

So, me and Spark/Desensitized were messaging each other earlier about how ridiculously low a certain manga series I used to read and that Spark still follows has sunk to utter rock bottom. From there we kind of expanded our discussion into all of our pet peeves with modern shonen series in general, and I thought that this could generate some interesting discussion to some of you guys as well, so I'll continue our conversation over here, on this thread.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on November 30, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
For the record, I think most would agree you're right. The "big three" have been popular for the last decade and change and they have really stifled any legitimate criticism or change in the industry because everyone refuses to stop reading those manga or anything like it.

My biggest problem is that the more I look at it, the more the three series seem to do the same thing (just to extremely different degrees of success) with bland main characters (though Naruto was a loner, Ichigo was a punk, and Luffy was basically Goku) and extremely shallow antagonists with side characters who are entirely useless. IMO, the only difference is the quality of the writers behind them.

I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but Sensui....Shishio....why are memorable and intelligent villains like this who aren't pretentious up the ass and come off as just threatening enough without seeming overpowered so hard to come by in this day and age. Those are great and memorable villains, and you'd think that a lot of shonen manga would try to capitalize on making villains of that calibur as well, but we usually get some boring bad guy who had some generic tragic back story that makes him think he's doing the right thing by basically being a very uneducated interpretation of what someone would expect a fascist with super abilities to be like. Seriously, though, even the villains that are technically "smart" in most modern shonen still suck because they are written with very little substance to them. I mean, hell, even freaking Freeza from Dragon Ball was more interesting than most villains today.

QuoteYeah, I'm sure it gets better after Skypiea but I can't really exaggerate that it really did kill all momentum of enthusiasm I had for it. Every time I've tried to read it since I just can't get into it. But I do acknowledge that he puts a lot into it and deserves much of his success for it, but Skypiea was essentially a terrible version of Alabasta without any of the good points and I had a feeling it was a formula he would milk again with varying degrees of success and I thought I'd merely read enough.

True, while I wouldn't say it was terrible myself, Skypiea was mostly pretty boring and really hurt the momentum the series had been building up to that point. Then it quite naturally took a while for Oda to build that momentum back up, and the Water Seven arc is honestly pretty slow but I do feel that the Enies Lobby is the best arc to use the standard One Piece story arc formula, and Thriller Bark was entertaining for what its worth. Impel Down and Marineford kept me reading because they were at least a different formula from what One Piece had been known for at the time. Once the time-skip happened, though, we were back to square one, and I have since become really fucking tired of Oda relying on the same tricks that he's been using in this series for well over a decade, now.

QuoteIf the man would do something about his vices (seek help already) then he could absolutely be the best shonen mangaka out there. But he also hasn't really done much in a decade except end an arc and meander about for a while, so I don't even know on what level I can judge his work.

Truth be told, despite how much I bitch, moan, and rant about my problems with the Chimera Ant arc, I have to be honest and say that I still liked it on the whole, as flaws as it really was. What pisses me off is how most fans think its his best work for no other reason than "ZOMG its SSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOO epicz and has rly powerful villainz n' shit!" Well, OK, that's an exaggeration, but whenever I try to point out that I think the arc has big problems to any blind idiot in the HXH fan-base (which I despise, despite it being one of my own favorite shonen series), they tell me off and just chalk it up to Togashi being eccentric or whatnot. My response is simply: eccentricity doesn't excuse anyone from lazy to downright bad writing.

Anyways, that said, I still can't deny that I really do like the arc on the whole. It has a ton of interesting concepts and the main ones are executed well. Meruem is a horribly overpowered villain, but his actual character progression and psyche are extremely well-done and he's a thoroughly interesting character to analyze. The arc also introduces some fucking awesome characters, Knuckle (an obvious call-back to Kuwabara in and of himself) easily being my favorite addition to an already rather large cast of characters. And for all of my problems with it, the arc still managed to keep me reading and wondering what happened next, even if it had me pissed off at times, and that's a testament to Togashi's talent as a writer to keep me coming back for more. It really reminded me of when I used to watch Yu Yu Hakusho on a weekly basis on Toonami and couldn't stand it every time an episode ended as I was always eager for the next Saturday to come so that I could continue the story. Its a show that constantly kept me coming back for more, and IMO was a better series than HXH due to being more consistent with its quality (though to be fair HXH is a far more ambitious series than YYH).

QuoteI would actually like a character who is good yet who isn't milquetoast, honestly. Kenshin, Kuwabara, or Tenma. They all have realistic faults, but are all unabashedly good guys and are excellent characters for it. But I do agree with your point, too, anyone who isn't a boring bland lead or an Emo Joe character would be a huge step up from what we have now.

Seriously, I'm just flat-out tired of the Gary-Sues out there who have the roles of protagonists in mainstream shonen series. Mangaka try to disguise that by giving them pseudo-attitudes, but they just turn out to be gimmicks (like he's a punk or a delinquent), without the substance to make those characters interesting and to make those gimmicks work.  For example, you can call a character like Oga from Beelzebub a delinquent or whatnot, but he doesn't have the substance of a true delinquent character. That character type was made famous by characters like Onizua from Shonan Junai Gumi (he's no longer a delinquent when he's an adult in GTO, though, but that is a natural progression of his character), who brought the comedic factor to the roll, and the fantasy-like interpretation of those characters in YYH brought another kind of substance to that character type. Yusuke brought the "bad-ass" factor to it while also having a sense of dignity and intelligence to him that defies what you would associate with that kind of character, while Kuwabara made the whole honor code and respect factor of that character type a really commonplace theme. Most modern shonen just try to emulate that old-school character type without seeming to understand the substance of what made those kinds of characters work in the old-school series that made them popular. That's merely just one example of me finding that most of the younger mangaka just don't seem to put much substance behind their characters in general.

QuoteI don't understand it at all. It was literally one of those moments where you already have it figured out in your head, but because the author pulls a cheat it just ends up insulting you. Berserker wasn't fast enough to beat Hermit back when the manga started, and now Kenichi is far faster than him and somehow Berserker keeps up with him? Based on what? He didn't train or anything, you can't get faster like that. If I'm not mistaken Hermit actually said that Berserker was at his limits in speed and strength because he didn't train which is why he beat him...

So how can he be stronger and faster than someone who is like 16 times stronger and faster than him? Because watching forms doesn't improve strength or speed.

So, I just read the last few chapters up to the current point just so I could see what you're talking about. I think I saw it mentioned that Berserker had been "practicing" on his own while Kensei just taught him key points about how to effectively use his Ki. But I may have just read a different translation or something of the sort. Either way, though, I still think its bogus that Matsuena downright contradicted his theme of training trumping over pure talent. It was implied in one of the most recent chapters that Berserker is just naturally able to fight on Kenichi's level, but that's utter bull-crap. I don't care how "talented" he is or how much of a "genius" he is. There is a limit to how rapidly you can increase the power of a character. If this series made any lick of sense, then there's no way that Berserker could have gained that much strength, speed, and skill in order to fight on the same level as Kenichi since the Ragnarok arc based mostly on his talent. Just having a few key things taught to you without any strict training and still getting that powerful is stupid. If that logic were consistent throughout the series, then Takeda should be multiple times stronger than Kenichi, and she's actually said to be talented and unlike Berserker he has a master class fighter training him on a daily basis. The complete inconsistency of characters' levels of strength in this series really show just how little Matsuena gives a shit about his own series. Like I said, the dude obviously stopped giving a shit years ago, which is why I learned to stop giving a shit and stop reading the series altogether, as well. It used to be a fun little guilty pleasure. Now I just feel guilty for sticking with it as long as I even did, way past when it went from decently fun to downright embarrassing.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on November 30, 2012, 09:33:53 PM
So, me and Spark/Desensitized were messaging each other earlier about how ridiculously low a certain manga series I used to read and that Spark still follows has sunk to utter rock bottom. From there we kind of expanded our discussion into all of our pet peeves with modern shonen series in general, and I thought that this could generate some interesting discussion to some of you guys as well, so I'll continue our conversation over here, on this thread.

Our conversation kind of blew out, so I'm eager to see what everyone else thinks as well.  :happytime:

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Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on November 30, 2012, 08:17:44 PM
For the record, I think most would agree you're right. The "big three" have been popular for the last decade and change and they have really stifled any legitimate criticism or change in the industry because everyone refuses to stop reading those manga or anything like it.

My biggest problem is that the more I look at it, the more the three series seem to do the same thing (just to extremely different degrees of success) with bland main characters (though Naruto was a loner, Ichigo was a punk, and Luffy was basically Goku) and extremely shallow antagonists with side characters who are entirely useless. IMO, the only difference is the quality of the writers behind them.

I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but Sensui....Shishio....why are memorable and intelligent villains like this who aren't pretentious up the ass and come off as just threatening enough without seeming overpowered so hard to come by in this day and age. Those are great and memorable villains, and you'd think that a lot of shonen manga would try to capitalize on making villains of that calibur as well, but we usually get some boring bad guy who had some generic tragic back story that makes him think he's doing the right thing by basically being a very uneducated interpretation of what someone would expect a fascist with super abilities to be like. Seriously, though, even the villains that are technically "smart" in most modern shonen still suck because they are written with very little substance to them. I mean, hell, even freaking Freeza from Dragon Ball was more interesting than most villains today.

I think most people take the easy way out and think "What if I just made Stalin the villain and changed his name and tweaked his goal?" Because most villains just seem like that to me nowadays. They either want to destroy the world because evil or they want to rule it because they are superior. The thing is, there are different reasons for why someone would want to do either of those things (as in real life) but those are never explored. Now, I'm not expecting a villain like Johan Liebert out of a shonen, but even characters like Shishio or Sensui had different wrinkles in their motivations that were both true to life and interesting to read about. Frieza might have been pretty straightforward, but he still had character besides being just evil- he actually used his brain.

Quote

QuoteYeah, I'm sure it gets better after Skypiea but I can't really exaggerate that it really did kill all momentum of enthusiasm I had for it. Every time I've tried to read it since I just can't get into it. But I do acknowledge that he puts a lot into it and deserves much of his success for it, but Skypiea was essentially a terrible version of Alabasta without any of the good points and I had a feeling it was a formula he would milk again with varying degrees of success and I thought I'd merely read enough.

True, while I wouldn't say it was terrible myself, Skypiea was mostly pretty boring and really hurt the momentum the series had been building up to that point. Then it quite naturally took a while for Oda to build that momentum back up, and the Water Seven arc is honestly pretty slow but I do feel that the Enies Lobby is the best arc to use the standard One Piece story arc formula, and Thriller Bark was entertaining for what its worth. Impel Down and Marineford kept me reading because they were at least a different formula from what One Piece had been known for at the time. Once the time-skip happened, though, we were back to square one, and I have since become really fucking tired of Oda relying on the same tricks that he's been using in this series for well over a decade, now.

Yeah, I mean I get why it's still going- because it's objectively the best thing in Shonen Jump on an effort scale, but that doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy it. But there has yet to be a shonen to beat it at its own game. Which in over a decade is downright embarrassing for the genre. If One Piece leaves unchallenged when it ends, I don't consider that a good thing, I consider that meaning everyone was scared to compete against it.

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QuoteIf the man would do something about his vices (seek help already) then he could absolutely be the best shonen mangaka out there. But he also hasn't really done much in a decade except end an arc and meander about for a while, so I don't even know on what level I can judge his work.

Truth be told, despite how much I bitch, moan, and rant about my problems with the Chimera Ant arc, I have to be honest and say that I still liked it on the whole, as flaws as it really was. What pisses me off is how most fans think its his best work for no other reason than "ZOMG its SSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOO epicz and has rly powerful villainz n' shit!" Well, OK, that's an exaggeration, but whenever I try to point out that I think the arc has big problems to any blind idiot in the HXH fan-base (which I despise, despite it being one of my own favorite shonen series), they tell me off and just chalk it up to Togashi being eccentric or whatnot. My response is simply: eccentricity doesn't excuse anyone from lazy to downright bad writing.

Anyways, that said, I still can't deny that I really do like the arc on the whole. It has a ton of interesting concepts and the main ones are executed well. Meruem is a horribly overpowered villain, but his actual character progression and psyche are extremely well-done and he's a thoroughly interesting character to analyze. The arc also introduces some fucking awesome characters, Knuckle (an obvious call-back to Kuwabara in and of himself) easily being my favorite addition to an already rather large cast of characters. And for all of my problems with it, the arc still managed to keep me reading and wondering what happened next, even if it had me pissed off at times, and that's a testament to Togashi's talent as a writer to keep me coming back for more. It really reminded me of when I used to watch Yu Yu Hakusho on a weekly basis on Toonami and couldn't stand it every time an episode ended as I was always eager for the next Saturday to come so that I could continue the story. Its a show that constantly kept me coming back for more, and IMO was a better series than HXH due to being more consistent with its quality (though to be fair HXH is a far more ambitious series than YYH).

My issue with HXH is something I alluded to before in another thread.

I don't understand what the point is anymore.

YYH was about a punk growing up into a man (though the anime had to salvage that) and becoming a better person, but I thought HXH was about the search for Gon's father. If it's not that, then what is it about? I'm not even sure he knows anymore.

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QuoteI would actually like a character who is good yet who isn't milquetoast, honestly. Kenshin, Kuwabara, or Tenma. They all have realistic faults, but are all unabashedly good guys and are excellent characters for it. But I do agree with your point, too, anyone who isn't a boring bland lead or an Emo Joe character would be a huge step up from what we have now.

Seriously, I'm just flat-out tired of the Gary-Sues out there who have the roles of protagonists in mainstream shonen series. Mangaka try to disguise that by giving them pseudo-attitudes, but they just turn out to be gimmicks (like he's a punk or a delinquent), without the substance to make those characters interesting and to make those gimmicks work.  For example, you can call a character like Oga from Beelzebub a delinquent or whatnot, but he doesn't have the substance of a true delinquent character. That character type was made famous by characters like Onizua from Shonan Junai Gumi (he's no longer a delinquent when he's an adult in GTO, though, but that is a natural progression of his character), who brought the comedic factor to the roll, and the fantasy-like interpretation of those characters in YYH brought another kind of substance to that character type. Yusuke brought the "bad-ass" factor to it while also having a sense of dignity and intelligence to him that defies what you would associate with that kind of character, while Kuwabara made the whole honor code and respect factor of that character type a really commonplace theme. Most modern shonen just try to emulate that old-school character type without seeming to understand the substance of what made those kinds of characters work in the old-school series that made them popular. That's merely just one example of me finding that most of the younger mangaka just don't seem to put much substance behind their characters in general.

This might sound harsh, but I think it's that most people who write manga these days have only ever read manga. So their version of a hero is not a "hero", it's a "shonen hero" which dilutes the original purpose of a hero. You could tell reading Kenshin that its writer was a history buff, you could tell reading Dragonball that the writer loved fairy tales, you could tell reading YYH that the writer was a fan of ghost stories, and all that helped separate the wheat from the chaff in uniqueness and variety. Not to say there isn't anything inherently wrong in preferring the genre of manga, but I'm pretty sure Tezuka wasn't just satisfied looking at himself in a mirror all day. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the writer of Gantz does.

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QuoteI don't understand it at all. It was literally one of those moments where you already have it figured out in your head, but because the author pulls a cheat it just ends up insulting you. Berserker wasn't fast enough to beat Hermit back when the manga started, and now Kenichi is far faster than him and somehow Berserker keeps up with him? Based on what? He didn't train or anything, you can't get faster like that. If I'm not mistaken Hermit actually said that Berserker was at his limits in speed and strength because he didn't train which is why he beat him...

So how can he be stronger and faster than someone who is like 16 times stronger and faster than him? Because watching forms doesn't improve strength or speed.

So, I just read the last few chapters up to the current point just so I could see what you're talking about. I think I saw it mentioned that Berserker had been "practicing" on his own while Kensei just taught him key points about how to effectively use his Ki. But I may have just read a different translation or something of the sort. Either way, though, I still think its bogus that Matsuena downright contradicted his theme of training trumping over pure talent. It was implied in one of the most recent chapters that Berserker is just naturally able to fight on Kenichi's level, but that's utter bull-crap. I don't care how "talented" he is or how much of a "genius" he is. There is a limit to how rapidly you can increase the power of a character. If this series made any lick of sense, then there's no way that Berserker could have gained that much strength, speed, and skill in order to fight on the same level as Kenichi since the Ragnarok arc based mostly on his talent. Just having a few key things taught to you without any strict training and still getting that powerful is stupid. If that logic were consistent throughout the series, then Takeda should be multiple times stronger than Kenichi, and she's actually said to be talented and unlike Berserker he has a master class fighter training him on a daily basis. The complete inconsistency of characters' levels of strength in this series really show just how little Matsuena gives a shit about his own series. Like I said, the dude obviously stopped giving a shit years ago, which is why I learned to stop giving a shit and stop reading the series altogether, as well. It used to be a fun little guilty pleasure. Now I just feel guilty for sticking with it as long as I even did, way past when it went from decently fun to downright embarrassing.

If they mentioned it, I must have missed it but... it's still a pretty lousy excuse. Let's also consider that in the tournament that Siegfried was apparently "the closest to being a master class fighter" and how Takeda as well shot up the ranks with his training. Berserker leapfrogging them all by training for at best a couple of weeks is massively insulting to every other character in the manga and its fans.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on November 30, 2012, 10:10:09 PM
This might sound harsh, but I think it's that most people who write manga these days have only ever read manga. So their version of a hero is not a "hero", it's a "shonen hero" which dilutes the original purpose of a hero.

That's the exact same impression I've been getting with currently running shonen manga as well. Some might argue that the mangaka are strictly only trying to market their manga to Japanese people, but even if you try to cater to a specific demographic, crap material is still crap. Stuff like Yu Yu Hakusho and Rurouni Kenshin and whatnot originally came out at times when manga and anime were extremely niche in the west (they are still technically niche, now, but they are popular enough to the point that tons of anime and manga get localized over here on a regular basis, now). So, naturally, those series were also written with just their local country in mind, but since the writers behind them were talented and the stories were so well written, it turns out that they had a really broad appeal beyond just their target demographic, and Yu Yu Hakusho and Rurouni Kenshin were both huge hits when they aired on Toonami. Its clear that people like Togashi and Watsuki had multiple influences beyond just other manga. Hell, Watsuki has stated before that he was a fan of some Marvel comics, notably X-Men and Spider-Man; you can actually see little tributes to both in certain character designs of his, with Aoshi's original trench coat heavily resembling that of Gambit's, and there was that one villain in the Revenge arc who's costume was such as obvious reference to Venom. The basic point, though, is that these 2, and many other old-school shonen mangaka, drew from multiple inspirations of their own rather than just what was popular at the time, and the result were the production of stories that felt like stuff that they really wanted to write and put a lot of passion into writing. And we got such classic and memorable manga series through those talented writers. Rather than just copying what was popular, they became popular on many of their own merits and became trend-setters for future manga.

Unfortunately, many upcoming mangaka apparently only tried to crib off of what made those manga popular, and didn't try to incorporate enough unique substance and flavor of their own, and it seems like the process was that the newer generation of mangaka were only being influenced by the older works of other mangaka. it seems like they were just trying to emulate what was popular from previous hit series to make a popular series of their own, rather than just a generally good one. Hell, even mangaka who clearly had tons of other influences and had great series when they first started out, such as Oda with One Piece, has dragged his series on for so long that its now an extremely derivative version of itself, which is to say the latest arcs seem to merely only try to crib off the success of the older arcs, and the result is laughable at best and just flat-out stale most of the time.

I'm not saying that current or future mangaka have to take inspiration from non-Japanese or even non-manga material (though it certainly wouldn't hurt), but rather that they just need to incorporate their own inspirations into what they think makes a good story while making sure to really focus on making their story good and standing out on its own merits. I just can't help but feel that the current mental state of mangaka in the current shonen industry is to just try and stick with whatever makes their series popular, whether its really quality work or not. A quote from Bakuman, one of the best shonen manga in recent memory, says it best: "If its interesting, people will read it." Yeah, its not the exact quote word for word, but that basic idea is just so damn true, yet nobody seems to follow that mentality anymore with currently running shonen series. Maybe that's just me, but I honestly feel that way, and I really have tried to appreciate a lot of current series on their own merits, but I have such a hard time even getting into any of the plethora that I have been trying to read.

I'm not going to beat around the bush about this, but I'm a huge fan of good versus evil stories and they're my favorite types of stories. It's why Monster is my favorite manga. But that doesn't mean all it takes to make a story is to have a good guy and a bad guy for me to be satisfied. You have to explore emotions, motivations, and desires, and show exactly how everyone came to be where they are and why they're going there. This isn't a truth for manga, but for pretty much all stories. People want to be invested in a story for it to mean something to them.

The problem is that manga (and anime) doesn't do this as much anymore. Emotions don't go deeper than vague anger and happiness, motivations are never deeper than "he does it because that's who he is", and desires are never anything other than "I want it because I don't have it", and that's not been enough for me as a reader. But they're all like this now.

That might be why there's so many school mangas/shows with same cast of characters. Because all these people know is school and teenagers, they don't look very far in the world they live in for inspiration. I think all the social interaction problems Japan is going through right now might be proof of that. They want shallow material, so that's why they're getting it.

Quote from: Ensatsu-kendifference is the quality of the writers behind them.
I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but Sensui....Shishio....why are memorable and intelligent villains like this who aren't pretentious up the ass and come off as just threatening enough without seeming overpowered so hard to come by in this day and age. Those are great and memorable villains, and you'd think that a lot of shonen manga would try to capitalize on making villains of that calibur as well, but we usually get some boring bad guy who had some generic tragic back story that makes him think he's doing the right thing by basically being a very uneducated interpretation of what someone would expect a fascist with super abilities to be like. Seriously, though, even the villains that are technically "smart" in most modern shonen still suck because they are written with very little substance to them. I mean, hell, even freaking Freeza from Dragon Ball was more interesting than most villains today.

That's what bugged me about the revelation of Tobi's identities and motives in Naruto. What could've been a decent Joker-esque "doing it for the lulz"-type villain was turned into yet another "tragic" villain with generic motives. A similar problem also exists with Sasuke, who's whole conflict and character arc have been done, and done better. The only thing interesting about Sasuke's turn to villain-y is that we actually got to see it firsthand...except Sasuke was pretty one-dimensional before his heel-turn so I can't really get into his character because it feels that Kishimoto's making him more complex than he really is.

Really though it's a shame because the sub-villains of these series are intresting enough, it's the main villains that are the problem. The only villain in shounen that I really thought was memorable (as in, legitimately a good villain, and not like Aizen, who's really only remembered for how asinine his plots and "motives" were, and I use that word VERY loosely when it comes to him) is Light Yagami.

Quote from: Spark of SpiritI think most people take the easy way out and think "What if I just made Stalin the villain and changed his name and tweaked his goal?" Because most villains just seem like that to me nowadays. They either want to destroy the world because evil or they want to rule it because they are superior. The thing is, there are different reasons for why someone would want to do either of those things (as in real life) but those are never explored. Now, I'm not expecting a villain like Johan Liebert out of a shonen, but even characters like Shishio or Sensui had different wrinkles in their motivations that were both true to life and interesting to read about. Frieza might have been pretty straightforward, but he still had character besides being just evil- he actually used his brain.

Seems that most writers think that giving them a sad backstory is enough, unfortunately they usually only get these backstories right before they die, when revealing them when they were still alive would have fleshed out their characters much more, and nothing really interesting is done with them.

QuoteSeriously, I'm just flat-out tired of the Gary-Sues out there who have the roles of protagonists in mainstream shonen series. Mangaka try to disguise that by giving them pseudo-attitudes, but they just turn out to be gimmicks (like he's a punk or a delinquent), without the substance to make those characters interesting and to make those gimmicks work.  For example, you can call a character like Oga from Beelzebub a delinquent or whatnot, but he doesn't have the substance of a true delinquent character. That character type was made famous by characters like Onizua from Shonan Junai Gumi (he's no longer a delinquent when he's an adult in GTO, though, but that is a natural progression of his character), who brought the comedic factor to the roll, and the fantasy-like interpretation of those characters in YYH brought another kind of substance to that character type. Yusuke brought the "bad-ass" factor to it while also having a sense of dignity and intelligence to him that defies what you would associate with that kind of character, while Kuwabara made the whole honor code and respect factor of that character type a really commonplace theme. Most modern shonen just try to emulate that old-school character type without seeming to understand the substance of what made those kinds of characters work in the old-school series that made them popular. That's merely just one example of me finding that most of the younger mangaka just don't seem to put much substance behind their characters in general.

Doesn't really help that said heroes really aren't that entertaining to watch. I myself would like to see more shounen Anti-Heroes, ones who have actual vices and flaws and isn't just a goody-goody in disguise of one (the only one that immediately comes to mind is Gamma from Zombie Powder, and his series was eventually canceled), someone like Sol Badguy, Ragna, or even Yuri Lowell and Dante, but actually originating from a manga. That, or more Kenshin/Vash's. Someone who's older than most of the immediate cast but still gets a fleshed out character arc y'know?

Quote from: Spark of SpiritYeah, I mean I get why it's still going- because it's objectively the best thing in Shonen Jump on an effort scale, but that doesn't necessarily mean I enjoy it. But there has yet to be a shonen to beat it at its own game. Which in over a decade is downright embarrassing for the genre. If One Piece leaves unchallenged when it ends, I don't consider that a good thing, I consider that meaning everyone was scared to compete against it.

Speaking of that, was there ever a manga around that was as good as Dragonball in effort by the time it was ending its run?

Tobi's reveal probably would have gone over better if it was revealed much sooner. And if, you know, he wasn't so shallow as to obey Madara because he was too dumb not too.

Quote from: Rynnec on November 30, 2012, 11:14:01 PMSpeaking of that, was there ever a manga around that was as good as Dragonball in effort by the time it was ending its run?

You know- there was something out there that had vague rankings of manga throughout the years but I can't for the life of me remember what it said. But there was a substantial break between the Dragonball and Z halves to where I'm sure something had to come up to compete with it. After all, the first part took a while to take off in popularity as well. So it wasn't like ten straight years at #1 or anything.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on November 30, 2012, 11:28:51 PM
Tobi's reveal probably would have gone over better if it was revealed much sooner. And if, you know, he wasn't so shallow as to obey Madara because he was too dumb not too.

You know, people were actually predicting Tobi's identity the very fucking moment he was first revealed, since that specific character would fit in perfectly with the loose-end of the Kakashi-Gaiden story-line. And after waiting so long to reveal to us who Tobi is....its basically the exact person that EVERYONE predicted YEARS ago. Anyone with half a brain literally saw that reveal coming miles away. I find it laughable that Kishimoto actually tried to play off the reveal as a plot twist, as I doubt that ANYONE was really surprised by the identity of Tobi, or if they really were then it was just a reaction to how Kishimoto literally spent hundreds of chapters building this guy up only to reveal the most obvious possible choice in the book (literally).

QuoteYou know- there was something out there that had vague rankings of manga throughout the years but I can't for the life of me remember what it said. But there was a substantial break between the Dragonball and Z halves to where I'm sure something had to come up to compete with it. After all, the first part took a while to take off in popularity as well. So it wasn't like ten straight years at #1 or anything.

Actually, if my history is correct, Dragon Ball was literally what they call an "overnight success." Of course, it may not have actually gained the gargantuan recognition that it has achieved among many viewers the world over (or even in Japan, for that matter) in just one night, but the basic idea is that before the end of the Pilaf arc (and that was originally intended to be the whole story, as Dragon Ball was only ever supposed to be a short gag-manga), the manga had unexpectedly become so popular that people demanded that it continue and thus poor Toriyama was forced to endure 11 years of writing the manga due to its surprisingly massive appeal. That said, he clearly put a lot of effort into the series, but you could tell that he was getting REALLY tired of it during by the time he got to the Cell arc, but at least he gave the series a proper send-off with the Majin Buu arc....IN THE MANGA! Seriously, the anime version of that arc can go fuck itself. The manga version is great, though. A lot of people who only watched the anime don't get that in the manga, the Buu arc was really just the series returning to its earlier roots of having more mystic elements and gags/comedy, with of course enough of the serious action that was still associated with the latter half of the series to stop the transition from feeling too jarring. But really, if you read the Buu arc in the manga, you'd notice that a lot of parts adapted in the anime that were played off as being completely serious are actually just played for humor in the manga. It is overall still a serious arc, I suppose, but Toriyama really did put a lot of heart into it and really gave the series a proper finale. A lot may not agree with me, but I really feel like this was the best possible way to close off this long-running shonen manga.

I have to say that Dragonball was a success because it was entirely fresh. It had adventure, comedy, action, and whimsy, which are all things fairytale readers love, as well as young boys- the target demographic. It was a brilliant idea that was executed well, but unfortunately all the industry seemed to take away from it was the fighting. They completely forget that up until the end of the Namek arc there were only two "power house" battles and only one of them was cliche (though to be fair it wasn't at the time) that being the one at the end of it. Dragonball only became completely about fighting around then. Now all manga base their entire premise around the Frieza battle because it was cool.

One Piece almost nailed this perfect storm, but I think Oda just missed the mark in the whimsy department. It actually stops me just short of really rooting for any characters short of Sanji or Chopper and occasionally Ussop, and they're practically useless in the story most of the time.

Dragonball was a success because it knew their was more to a story than mindless violence, which is ironically what most mainstream media think of it as (since that's what it became by the end of it all), but that it was about the story first and foremost. But if it was that popular out of the gate then I'm pretty surprised, since something like that would probably get canceled by the end of the Pilaf arc if it ran nowadays.

Quote from: Ensatsu-kenYou know, people were actually predicting Tobi's identity the very fucking moment he was first revealed, since that specific character would fit in perfectly with the loose-end of the Kakashi-Gaiden story-line. And after waiting so long to reveal to us who Tobi is....its basically the exact person that EVERYONE predicted YEARS ago. Anyone with half a brain literally saw that reveal coming miles away. I find it laughable that Kishimoto actually tried to play off the reveal as a plot twist, as I doubt that ANYONE was really surprised by the identity of Tobi, or if they really were then it was just a reaction to how Kishimoto literally spent hundreds of chapters building this guy up only to reveal the most obvious possible choice in the book (literally).

Well, to Kishi's credit, he did do his best to keep people guessing by throwing in a lot of twists and Red Herrings by having him go under Madara's name and whatnot.

Speaking of Dragonball, I can only imagine readers' initial reaction to everything from Saiyan saga onward and the transition from whimsical fantasy to a bizarre fantasy/sci-fi hybrid.

I can only imagine what their reaction was to the first Z arc, where Goku gets a kid, gets a brother, is revealed to be an alien, then dies.

Quote from: Dr. Insomniac on December 01, 2012, 01:02:49 AM
I can only imagine what their reaction was to the first Z arc, where Goku gets a kid, gets a brother, is revealed to be an alien, then dies.

In Canada we had Dragonball first, but only the Pilaf arc, so I was pretty confused at the time.

I hope Shisio is better in the manga because I didn't care for him in the show.

Quote from: gunswordfist on December 01, 2012, 04:37:03 PM
I hope Shisio is better in the manga because I didn't care for him in the show.

That's because you're an idiot who judges villains based on DBZ-logic. :>

His motivations are expanded on in the manga.

His motivations are shown in the manga as well. There is a bit more exposition about him in the Revenge arc that was never animated, I believe, but the anime pretty much made a faithful adaptation of the Kyoto arc, and last time I checked they didn't change or even leave out anything about his back-story or any of his character moments. I do believe that some of his scenes may have been cut (along with some other scenes) when the show aired on Toonami, but even then it just would've been minor stuff.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on December 01, 2012, 06:02:42 PM
His motivations are expanded on in the manga.

Thanks and thanks for having a brain. I just saw his first appearance when I read Volume 8 two days ago so I've seen nothing for myself yet.

Hello. Frankly, I am a horrible judge of quality in everything, anime/manga included. I do not believe my opinion matters, however because I am never informed. Granted I'm autistic, but that may not be the reason why I'm such a 'tard. If someone offers an opposite opinion, I'm afraid they would kill me if I expressed my views. I like shounen, but am afraid to be criticized by my fellow anime fans since criticism is something that autistic people can't deal with very well. At all. Due to a deficit in entertainment intelligence and expression, I feel like my views and opinions don't matter compared to other people on this planet. I'm just afraid that I'll be called a retard if I say I like current Bleach or current Naruto or whatever. I apologize if this seems off-topic, but I needed to see if my tard opinions are welcome here, or anywhere.  :(

An opinion is an opinion. Nobody on this board is going to look down on you just because they disagree with your opinion, so long as you don't show blatant disrespect to anyone else's opinions. Besides, it'd be boring if everyone on this board shared the same exact opinion on everything, so we welcome some diversity, here. ;)

If you're referring to us, don't worry, we know its all just entertainment. If you prefer that kind of material, then that's up to you. If we talk down about something you like it's only because we don't like it, it doesn't have anything to do with you.

For instance,  manga nowadays could never have a villain like Seta Soujiro and I feel that's an issue, but that's my opinion. If you don't care either way, that's fine with me.

Feel free to talk about whatever you want! No one's going to be a dick to you, and if they are, I'll have a few "words" with them. :devil:

I could've sworn that I posted here.

In terms of anime I don't really watch any shonen anymore. I read them which I'll get to in a bit. The only shonen that I'll actually watch (and that's because I own them on dvd) are Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, Rurouni Kenshin, Death Note and Yu Yu Hakusho. And those are the ones that're better suited for me. I've tried watching Naruto, Bleach, Soul Eater and Fairy Tail, and for the most part I've stuck with Naruto and Bleach for a little bit, but eventually ended up giving up on them due to inconsistent animation, bad dubs, and v/a's that went with the annoying characters. One Piece I ended up dropping after maybe 3-5 episodes. The series is far too ugly for my taste. Fairy Tail and Soul Eater never clicked, not to mention that Fairy Tail is another one of those series that cheats and used recycled animation (I hate that)

Manga-wise, on the other hand, Rurouni Kenshin is my favorite, and there haven't really been much to match up to it in terms of keeping me entertained. The only other series that grabbed me the way RK grabbed me was Psyren and that ended on a bad note due to rush productions and cancellations. While I still read both Naruto and Bleach till this day, that's only because I'm interested in seeing how the stories are going to turn out. With the way Bleach is going, though, Kubo's really testing my patience. Naruto's been up and down. I also read Fairy Tail, and that's probably one of the better on-going series, but is still terribly flawed as well, but it does just enough to keep me interested.

Anyway, my issue with shonen these days are the constant usage of main leads that has to be a Goku mirror. Seriously, Naruto, Luffy, Natsu, and Gon (potentially more, I don't know), do you really need anymore series with the main character having that "carefree" personality? Ichigo was a step in the right direction, but suffers from poor usage of main friends. Everyone in Ichigo's group are either forgetful or annoying. As far as I'm concerned Kubo should just kill off Uryuu, Orihime, and Chad. Samurai Deeper Kyo almost reaches RK, but suffers because of I hate the "damsel" role as well, and that's in just about everything. At least in RK, Kaoru was able to hold her own, and even then she was much more tolerable in the manga than the anime. And then the trend of having a child/teen save the world.... How many times must I see this.

With all that being said I don't know what Psyren did, because it didn't bring anything new to the table. Hell it has teens saving the world for goodness sake, but everything in it just felt like a breath of fresh air. It's like it took elements from Yu Yu Hakusho, Bleach, and Back to the Future (exaggeration) and combined them to make something fresh (I still can't explain why it feels refreshing). I like the entire cast of characters. Everyone used their frickin domes (not many series like that) and everyone held their own. It's just too bad that Japan didn't care for it (yet they prefer the Naruto's, Bleach's and One Piece's... "shrugs").

I had more to say, but I'm having constant brain farts

Quote from: Grave on January 10, 2013, 04:43:50 PM
Manga-wise, on the other hand, Rurouni Kenshin is my favorite, and there haven't really been much to match up to it in terms of keeping me entertained.

Yeah, Rurouni Kenshin is easily the best mainstream shonen manga that I've ever read. Its honestly my favorite manga in general.

QuoteAnyway, my issue with shonen these days are the constant usage of main leads that has to be a Goku mirror. Seriously, Naruto, Luffy, Natsu, and Gon (potentially more, I don't know)

Gon is nothing like Goku or those other characters, though. A lot of people don't take the time to actually look at and analyze his character, but aside from having the appearance of a spunky, generic shonen good boy, he's one of the most morally gray protagonists that are there in shonen series. Take notice to how he never looks down on any of his friends that resort of killing, like Killua and Kurapika, and has no issues killing himself when he has to. He has that sense of adventure and that well-mannered sort of attitude that you might expect of typical shonen characters, but his view of the world and his judgement of people have nothing to do with the standard morals that most of these characters follow. When Kurapika was trying to hunt down and eliminate the Genei Ryodan, he didn't try to stop him from killing just because "killing is bad," but rather tried to lighten the weight of his burden by helping him out in hopes that he didn't have to do anymore killing if Gon could help it. Also, in the last arc of HXH, Gon developed into a far more aggressive and ruthless character, and this is done pretty well as it happens gradually over the course of a long arc rather than abruptly just for the sake of being edgy. At one point he becomes so determined to carry out a goal of trying to resurrect a dead ally that he basically holds an innocent person hostage in order to get the only person who can possibly perform such an act to do so. And in all this time its not portrayed as something cool or edgy, but how his character is degrading for the worse based on an impossible ideal. At any rate, he is not the same breed of character as the ones you mentioned. That's just the standard appearance he presents that might seem to hold true under normal situations, but HXH is a series that constantly puts its characters in anything but standard situations down the line.

Yeah, I stopped reading HxH way before those arcs you were talking about (I think). I think it was somewhere around when Gon and company was going to Killua's house that I stopped reading.

When I say Goku clone, it has nothing to do with morals or appearance. It's that "airhead" trait that I can't stand. They're a genius when it comes to fighting, but an idiot when it comes to everything else. I'm just too tired of that trope.

Even that trope pretty much gets dropped in later arcs of the series. Togashi actually makes it a point to show how that carefree attitude can lead to bad consequences despite good intentions, and Gon has to learn from that. Most other shonen series portray that as being a good thing, which is what really bugs me.

Either way, HXH is probably the smartest long-running shonen that's still going. Its also probably one of the darkest shonen series that I've seen, though it falsely presents itself as a more positive-spirited series in the beginning.

Anyways, I do agree with you in regards to the other characters. I can't stand the generic do-gooders who are complete morons when it comes to anything but fighting. Oddly enough, I didn't mind it with Goku in Dragon Ball mostly because it was played to comedic effect. But it I absolutely loathe how ever since then nearly every shonen series has saw fit to copy that character type just because Dragon Ball made it popular. Now we have a ton of clones of the same exact character type projected into most mainstream shonen series and it rightfully drives people (including myself) insane. I even complained about boring, generic shonen main characters on multiple occasions in this thread alone.

Ideally I'd want more characters along the lines of either Yusuke from YYH or Kenshin from RK. With Yusuke, he doesn't always care about doing what's right but rather just focuses on getting the job done. And while he's not necessarily that intelligent outside of fights, he doesn't act like a carefree moron either. He actually has personality and substance to him, and whether its just being a punk or conversing with other characters in-between fights, he's always an interesting character to be around. With Kenshin, I like the fact that he's actually an adult with years of wisdom behind him. I know that this character isn't done more often in shonen because its marketed more to kids and its probably more popular to make teenage heroes for those types of series with the adults really only serving as the mentors. But I like that for once we have a character who has already had all of his training (or most of it, in this case), and who has already made a name for himself in the world he lives in. In this case, you see that he is living a bit of a sad life as a wanderer, atoning for the mistakes and bad deeds of his past. I like the element of his past constantly coming back to haunt him, and how layered and matured his character is. Its really refreshing for a shonen series, and rather than being about some annoying kid always talking about how he'll be so great in the future (yet still not developing at all despite hundreds of chapters worth of time to have the opportunity to develop), its about an adult who is living his future and despite having had the best of intentions in his youth, it turns out that his future isn't all that it was cracked up to be.

Really, I don't necessarily need more shonen characters like Yusuke or Kenshin (I'd prefer something more unique, anyways), but at this point anything is better than the generic "good kid" that plagues most shonen series these days.

I think what separates Gon is that he's not a genius at fighting. The only thing he was ever fast at was learning how to use Nen. Seriously, Killua is stronger than him, Leorio is smarter than him, and Kurapika is more knowledgeable about the world than him. He's a simple kid, yes, but nothing he does ever strikes me as stupid so much as ignorant of the world. He's also the most childish and the most selfish of any of his friends (even Killua) and is by far the most unstable. You know you've got problems when Killua (the trained assassin) is berating you for doing something cold.

He's not my favorite character in the manga (he's actually my least favorite of the main four), but again that's partially because of the negative traits he has. It has nothing to do with the character being written badly or whatever.

But I agree about getting bored of the air-headed hero. It's like they can't give the character a motive for being good other than because... he is. Which is unbelievably lazy.

Quote from: Grave on January 10, 2013, 04:43:50 PM
I could've sworn that I posted here.

In terms of anime I don't really watch any shonen anymore. I read them which I'll get to in a bit. The only shonen that I'll actually watch (and that's because I own them on dvd) are Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, Rurouni Kenshin, Death Note and Yu Yu Hakusho. And those are the ones that're better suited for me. I've tried watching Naruto, Bleach, Soul Eater and Fairy Tail, and for the most part I've stuck with Naruto and Bleach for a little bit, but eventually ended up giving up on them due to inconsistent animation, bad dubs, and v/a's that went with the annoying characters. One Piece I ended up dropping after maybe 3-5 episodes. The series is far too ugly for my taste. Fairy Tail and Soul Eater never clicked, not to mention that Fairy Tail is another one of those series that cheats and used recycled animation (I hate that)

When this happened to me I sort of drifted away from anime outside of stuff like Monster or Bakuman. Shonen has been milking the same formula for too long without many, if any, new ideas. I've kind of gone back and watched (or read) more older stuff based on recommendations. It's how I found stuff like Shounen Gumi (the GTO prequel), Slam Dunk, and Martian Successor Nadesico. Mostly because the new guys aren't making things I'm into.

QuoteWith all that being said I don't know what Psyren did, because it didn't bring anything new to the table. Hell it has teens saving the world for goodness sake, but everything in it just felt like a breath of fresh air. It's like it took elements from Yu Yu Hakusho, Bleach, and Back to the Future (exaggeration) and combined them to make something fresh (I still can't explain why it feels refreshing). I like the entire cast of characters. Everyone used their frickin domes (not many series like that) and everyone held their own. It's just too bad that Japan didn't care for it (yet they prefer the Naruto's, Bleach's and One Piece's... "shrugs").

I had more to say, but I'm having constant brain farts

Psyren and Enigma were like this with me, too. They didn't offer anything new (Psyren even started out as Gantz-lite, then completely blew it out of the water while Gantz never became more than trash), yet their execution revealed an author who cared about story, characters, and basic bits that make all stories great. They were well paced, they had an interesting battle between good and evil, motivations beyond because, and every character was likeable in some way.

But they weren't clones of one of the big three so no one was interested.

I doubt Bakuman would have lasted if it wasn't written by the Death Note guys since they could keep a phenomenal pace up.

So, I just watched Y Ruler of Time's 2-part video on The Downfall of Bleach. While these (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/yrt/readright/35098-read-right-to-left-the-downfall-of-bleach-part-1) videos (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/yrt/readright/35352-read-right-to-left-the-downfall-of-bleach-part-2) are a bit old, I felt that they were definitely a good watch, and in many was emulate what I find to be wrong with so many shonen in general these days. That is to say, a lot of the problems that he points out about Bleach are things that I can apply to a lot of series, such as introducing too many new character at once without properly developing any of them, and before you even get a chance to know them as a reader, you get introduced to yet another slew of new characters for almost no reason at all. There's also the element of dragged out fights, generic villains that act smart at first but then end up losing out of sheer stupidity, and just really recycled plots.

As for his comments specifically pertaining to Bleach, I do have to agree with them wholeheartedly, though. Keep in mind, I stopped reading the series YEARS ago at some point in-between the Hueco Mundo arc and the Arrancar arc. Its just got far too grating for me to keep up with. I mean, I have my problems with stuff like One Piece (which is so formulaic right now and has pretty much bored me off of the series for at least a while) and Naruto (which I still find boring right now, even though everyone else thinks its "so epic" in its current arc), but neither of those series ever came closer to driving me up the wall as much as Bleach ever did. It just commits every cardinal sin of bad writing. I was one of those people who got into Bleach back when it was popular, and when I first watched it I legitimately liked everything up to the end of the Soul Society arc (of course, now I have problems with the series when I look back on even that arc, but I won't deny that it was when the series was clearly at its peak in terms of quality and popularity), but then the series veered off-track so quickly that it just forced me to finally give up on it, and it takes A LOT for a series to make me do that. For the record, I still read Naruto despite not having liked it for years if only because it has become a habit to stick with the series since it was one of the first manga that I ever read. Its just ridiculous how wrong this series has gone, as if Kubo was actively trying to write the worst material that he could think of. There are loads of inconsistencies abound, the most painful of which is when he makes character who have undergone complete character arcs early on in the series completely regress and become even bigger idiots than they ever were just for the sake of pushing on the plot a little bit longer (or in most cases drawing out some pointless fight). He was pulling shit even when I quit the series years ago, and from all of the complaints that I have constantly heard from fans, he has just made that problem even worse (if it could have even gotten any worse than it was), as time went on.

Its such a shame because most modern shonen seem to have, unfortunately, been influenced by Bleach quite a bit. To be fair, they were probably influenced by the popular parts of Bleach back when the series was at its peak, but for whatever reason a lot of shonen seem to be taking after Bleach's many vices, as well. Maybe its just me who sees things that way, but after having watched those videos, it really brought up my issue with just how bad shonen can really be when its written bad, and unfortunately there are far too many examples of that, and as this video shows, Bleach is probably the most notorious example of bad shonen writing.

Kubo and Kishimoto seem to be having a "who can write the most bullshit" competition. Both manga have their moments, but their buried in all the crap the others pull.

FWIW, I think Bleach is at least slightly better than Naruto. Which isn't really saying much, but it's been kinda slowly getting better-ish. At the very least Ichigo's more tolerable a protagonist than Naruto, Orihime and Rukia aren't anywhere near as annoying and useless as Sakura (they're stil pretty bland, but at least they can be legitimately amusing when they're not angsting or bitching), and all of Ichigo's rivals are easily more effective as rival's than Sasuke. There's also the fact that Bleach's story, while crappy, isn't as stuck up its own ass like Naruto's seems to be, plus as horrible as characters like Mayuri and Yamamoto are, at least they're not put up on a fucking pedastal like Itachi is. Seriously, the guy mind-raped his little brother and murdered his entire clan for poorly explained reasons, and we're supposed to believe he's this great misunderstood hero?

OTOH, there's quite a few minor characters in Bleach that grate on me to no end, and they get quite a bit of focus for god knows what reason, any humor that's outside of a slice-of-life context is very hit-or-miss, and Kubo takes fucking forever to answer any important questions in the narrative.

I dunno, I sorta have I love-hate relationship with this manga if you couldn't tell. :sweat:

Just because I was bored, I would like to hear other people's opinions on the tropes that they detest about shonen anime the most. All of the stuff that makes them uninteresting, annoying, or downright un-watchable for you. Then, I'd like to see you or others offer up some ideas on how to get rid of or improve upon those said tropes to make for a potentially good shonen series.

I'll be listing some of my own later, but I mainly want to see other people's opinions on this one.

Training arcs.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 03, 2013, 04:19:52 PM
Training arcs.

I agree, but I would like to point out that I believe Dragon Ball is the one and only shonen series to have ever done training arcs right. They had a very Karate Kid-esque vibe to them, which just made the training segments actually interesting to watch to see how they payed off later. Most shonen series don't get that, and in the end most training arcs become a cheap way of padding without having the talent to add in any substance to them. Training arcs COULD be a great way to actually further develop characters in shonen series, but I doubt most shonen mangaka even know what character development is, let alone have the talent to actually pull it off right.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 03, 2013, 04:25:26 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 03, 2013, 04:19:52 PM
Training arcs.

I agree, but I would like to point out that I believe Dragon Ball is the one and only shonen series to have ever done training arcs right. They had a very Karate Kid-esque vibe to them, which just made the training segments actually interesting to watch to see how they payed off later. Most shonen series don't get that, and in the end most training arcs become a cheap way of padding without having the talent to add in any substance to them. Training arcs COULD be a great way to actually further develop characters in shonen series, but I doubt most shonen mangaka even know what character development is, let alone have the talent to actually pull it off right.

Well, Dragon Ball was the first to have the whole crazy and funny training to get massively more powerful idea so I let it go as it is. But I mean devoting whole sections of a story for a good guy to carrot and a stick up to the next bad guy is beyond tired now. At least do it Dark Tournament style while it is masked behind the actual plot or something.

I find most in the genre now merely get held back by things like that "We gotta have a training arc", "We gotta have a tournament arc", "We gotta make the good guy lose here" whether it suits the story or not.

I despise asspull powerups out of nowhere and invincible/omniscient villains with no personality other than "smug master planner" and poorly-explained/pretentious motivations.

I'm also not too fond of "emo" rivals.

To me, you should only attempt an cliche sort of arc if you can actually bring your own spin to the formula, and try to make it potentially better than other works in the genre that have come before it. For that reason, nobody should try to make tournament arcs in shonen series anymore. The Dark Tournament arc is the best one that was ever written and still to this day firmly stands at the best in the tournament sub-genre of story arcs. I don't see anything ever topping it, so why bother even trying? ;)

Here's another shonen trope that I hate:

-The main character has to be the strongest if his "team" or "group," and any leader-figure in a shonen series HAS to be physically stronger (or at least in terms of special abilities0 than everyone he leads.

My problem is: Why should that matter? Is the message that good and proper leadership requires physical dominance? That's a horrible lesson to teach to kids.

On this note, despite all of your faults with Togashi, even you have to give him credit for completely avoiding this trope in HXH. Gon is far from the strongest in his group (he is shown on multiple occasions to be behind both Kurapika and Killua, and even many other supporting characters who join him) and....there is no point in the entire series where any of that matters. There is no drive for Gon to be physically better than his friends, but just to improve himself for the sake of, well....improving himself. That's pretty fucking refreshing. I like that he's still willing to go out and help anyone he can and will take responsibility for covering his own ass in battle, despite knowing that he's usually at a disadvantage in both power and skill. What makes him stand-out and get the other characters to "follow" him, is because he has charisma, and he has the personality and wit to bring characters together for whatever cause or goal he's trying to work toward or help them work toward. He isn't exactly a leader, but he is the closest thing to a leader among his group of friends, and they would always rally behind him, but not because he's the strongest, but because he's a person that they can have faith in no matter what.

Another example, albeit in a sports series instead of a battle series, is in Slam Dunk. Sakuragi Hanamichi is pretty much the weak link on his team until the very end of the series. And....that's just fine. His team knows that he has a lot of passion for what he's doing (even if he doesn't always realize it), and they can see his potential to be truly great one day. He also is the one guy that can always boost team morale when things look like they are going south fast, so on that end I appreciate that the author doesn't automatically make him a great player, but rather a great TEAM player. Once again, he's not exactly the captain of his team, but you could argue that he is just as useful as good ol' "Gori" in that he in many ways is still responsible for helping lead the team to victory in terms of pumping them up on a psychological level. I am so glad that they didn't just have him surpass his rival Rukawa. They instead kept Rukawa as the goal he needed to work toward, and even by the end of the series he's still nowhere near as good as him, but by that point the rewarding feeling you get comes from how you know he has gained Rukawa's complete respect, even if Rukawa himself would never admit it at that point. I like stuff like that, personally.

Why do so few other shonen ever share that concept? I don't normally mind this trope too much, but it does get annoying in how its exploited in most shonen series these days.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 03, 2013, 05:00:28 PMOn this note, despite all of your faults with Togashi, even you have to give him credit for completely avoiding this trope in HXH. Gon is far from the strongest in his group (he is shown on multiple occasions to be behind both Kurapika and Killua, and even many other supporting characters who join him) and....there is no point in the entire series where any of that matters. There is no drive for Gon to be physically better than his friends, but just to improve himself for the sake of, well....improving himself. That's pretty fucking refreshing. I like that he's still willing to go out and help anyone he can and will take responsibility for covering his own ass in battle, despite knowing that he's usually at a disadvantage in both power and skill. What makes him stand-out and get the other characters to "follow" him, is because he has charisma, and he has the personality and wit to bring characters together for whatever cause or goal he's trying to work toward or help them work toward. He isn't exactly a leader, but he is the closest thing to a leader among his group of friends, and they would always rally behind him, but not because he's the strongest, but because he's a person that they can have faith in no matter what.

Another example, albeit in a sports series instead of a battle series, is in Slam Dunk. Sakuragi Hanamichi is pretty much the weak link on his team until the very end of the series. And....that's just fine. His team knows that he has a lot of passion for what he's doing (even if he doesn't always realize it), and they can see his potential to be truly great one day. He also is the one guy that can always boost team morale when things look like they are going south fast, so on that end I appreciate that the author doesn't automatically make him a great player, but rather a great TEAM player. Once again, he's not exactly the captain of his team, but you could argue that he is just as useful as good ol' "Gori" in that he in many ways is still responsible for helping lead the team to victory in terms of pumping them up on a psychological level. I am so glad that they didn't just have him surpass his rival Rukawa. They instead kept Rukawa as the goal he needed to work toward, and even by the end of the series he's still nowhere near as good as him, but by that point the rewarding feeling you get comes from how you know he has gained Rukawa's complete respect, even if Rukawa himself would never admit it at that point. I like stuff like that, personally.

Why do so few other shonen ever share that concept? I don't normally mind this trope too much, but it does get annoying in how its exploited in most shonen series these days.

You can go further back to YYH if you want. Before Sensui's defeat, there is no clear "strongest" member of the group (though Yusuke is probably the best it is hardly dwelled upon very long) and he isn't really the leader in Chapter Black despite it as different people take charge when they need to.

Slam Dunk is another good example as is the newer one Kuroko No Basket (his skills have nothing to do with "strength") but even sports manga rarely go down this path. The main character is usually a star player overshadowed by possibly one rival on the same team.

Training arcs are good at a story's start when you want to delve into the world and the characters need something to do to pass time, but when the story starts it always feels like a crutch these days to have it stop because the hero needs to pump iron.

Quote from: Rynnec on July 03, 2013, 04:49:43 PM
I despise asspull powerups out of nowhere and invincible/omniscient villains with no personality other than "smug master planner" and poorly-explained/pretentious motivations.

I'm also not too fond of "emo" rivals.

I kind of think the rival concept has been way too overdone. Friendly competition is nice, but not when it takes away from the story. Kenshin and Saito was a good rivalry, but I think Naruto and Sasuke might have ruined it for years to come.

To add to your power-up annoyance, I dislike when the character tells his enemy how his attack works. That is beyond stupid for anyone in a fight to do.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 03, 2013, 05:17:39 PM

Quote from: Rynnec on July 03, 2013, 04:49:43 PM
I despise asspull powerups out of nowhere and invincible/omniscient villains with no personality other than "smug master planner" and poorly-explained/pretentious motivations.

I'm also not too fond of "emo" rivals.

I kind of think the rival concept has been way too overdone. Friendly competition is nice, but not when it takes away from the story. Kenshin and Saito was a good rivalry, but I think Naruto and Sasuke might have ruined it for years to come.

Yeah, it's characters like Sasuke that really drag the concept down. Rival's like Vegeta, Saito, Grimmjow, and Char are the ones I prefer. But for the most part, rivalries are better when they start out as one of the central focuses of the story (like in S-CRY-Ed) rather than derail it (like in Naruto).

QuoteTo add to your power-up annoyance, I dislike when the character tells his enemy how his attack works. That is beyond stupid for anyone in a fight to do.

Completely agreed. Why can't more mangaka just explain them in chapter notes or have another character figure out how the power works by themselves and then explain it. If there was one thing Bleach did right, it was having Gin outright lie about how his powers work to his enemy.

Quote from: Rynnec on July 03, 2013, 05:34:48 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 03, 2013, 05:17:39 PM

Quote from: Rynnec on July 03, 2013, 04:49:43 PM
I despise asspull powerups out of nowhere and invincible/omniscient villains with no personality other than "smug master planner" and poorly-explained/pretentious motivations.

I'm also not too fond of "emo" rivals.

I kind of think the rival concept has been way too overdone. Friendly competition is nice, but not when it takes away from the story. Kenshin and Saito was a good rivalry, but I think Naruto and Sasuke might have ruined it for years to come.

Yeah, it's characters like Sasuke that really drag the concept down. Rival's like Vegeta, Saito, Grimmjow, and Char are the ones I prefer. But for the most part, rivalries are better when they start out as one of the central focuses of the story (like in S-CRY-Ed) rather than derail it (like in Naruto).

QuoteTo add to your power-up annoyance, I dislike when the character tells his enemy how his attack works. That is beyond stupid for anyone in a fight to do.

Completely agreed. Why can't more mangaka just explain them in chapter notes or have another character figure out how the power works by themselves and then explain it. If there was one thing Bleach did right, it was having Gin outright lie about how his powers work to his enemy.

Oh yeah! I remember when he did that. I remembered thinking that was actually smart of him to do. Why would he tell him his weakness? He's not an idiot.

You know how the best way to explain it to the audience? Yusuke Vs. Rando in YYH. We don't find out why he lost until the fight is over. Because if Yusuke would have told him, he would have been unrealistically moronic. And he would have been killed. Having the character figure it out on his own (or not) makes for more interesting battles.

That's the way it should be done, in my opinion. Save the explanations for later, the main character should not be telling his opponent how to beat him.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 03, 2013, 05:44:47 PM
You know how the best way to explain it to the audience? Yusuke Vs. Rando in YYH. We don't find out why he lost until the fight is over. Because if Yusuke would have told him, he would have been unrealistically moronic. And he would have been killed. Having the character figure it out on his own (or not) makes for more interesting battles.

To be fair, though, Yusuke himself only defeated Rando by accident, and didn't even realize that he had gotten some swampy stuff stuck in his ears until AFTER Rando cast his spell and had it reversed on him (at least in the manga, anyways), so Yusuke couldn't even reveal what he did until after he defeated Rando since even he didn't realize it until the battle was pretty much over. :sweat:

Now, Kurama on the other hand has several fights in which he does exactly what you say, in that he defeats his enemies and THEN reveals his strategy to them after they are defeated or just as he is about to finish them off and they are helpless to do anything about it (which is why him killing Roto is one of the most bad-ass scenes ever).

Also, this is yet another area where I have to give some MAJOR props to Togashi. There are some instances where he breaks this in HXH, but in those cases it usually makes sense, like with Hisoka sort of hinting at how his powers work to give Gon a fair chance to strike him since Gon didn't stand a chance of beating him, anyways. But what I really wanted to point out was stuff like Kurapika pretty much hinging on the fact that the Genei Ryodan didn't know how his powers worked (he revealed into to Uvogin, but that was when the guy was pretty much about to die), and stuff like how in a recently adapted part of the Chimera Ant arc in the HXH anime, Gon told Killua that it would be better to try and defeat Knuckle and Shoot without finding out what their powers are first, and his rationale for that was because even if they beat them and got the right to go back into NGL to fight the Chimera Ant army with the top-class Hunters, their opponents in that area would not be stupid enough to reveal their powers to them, so they would have to be able to fight opponents without fully understanding how their abilities worked. That's some freaking smart logic and writing right there. Thank you again, Togashi. :thumbup:

QuoteThat's the way it should be done, in my opinion. Save the explanations for later, the main character should not be telling his opponent how to beat him.

I'm also honestly OK with keeping the discussion to characters talking about it on the sidelines, away from the action. It actually feels kind of realistic, in a way. What I mean is that sometimes when I'm forced to watch sports or poker games with some of my friends who know I'm not into that stuff, they do try and help me along by explaining the strategies going on between opponents and generally how they work against each other, so in that regard I can find it believable for characters to do that during a fight in a shonen series. Its just completely idiotic for a character to reveal to his opponent exactly what his strategy is and give his opponent the best possible chance to counter it, unless the character is just literally that cocky as a personality trait, which is still pretty stupid, of course.

I'll also say that I'm tired of giving main characters "Super Modes" only to reduce them to simply another power upgrade that they use for almost every fight onward. Really takes away the specialness said super modes have.

Ever since Super Saiyan it feels like every shonen does this now, right? Of course not realizing that the most powerful un-fused character in Dragon Ball is Mystic Gohan who has no transformation and is full strength out of the gate. That's also not putting into account that the first Super Saiyan only appears at the climax of the first half of the Z series and before that transformations are used very sparingly.

Transformations feel like they've gotten too elaborate and overblown in shonen to the point where it feels it might as well be sentai. Naruto has too many to count, One Piece has Gear 2, and Bleach even got in on the action to an extent. Just stick to the character and the natural extent of their skills. Transformations just feel like a cheap way to add power to characters without having to train them first.

Didn't Oda try to give Gear 2 a drawback by making it eat at Luffy's lifespan or something? I know Naruto definitely tried to give a similar drawback. I prefer it when the character only uses their super transformations in extreme situations, like against the main villain or something.

I also have a love/hate relationship with Superpowered Evil Sides. When done correctly they can be pretty entertaining to watch and cause some good internal conflict, when done poorly, ehhhhhh.

In defense of Gear 2, it has a caveat in that it really drains Luffy's power incredibly quickly, and if he uses it too long he won't even be able to move after a certain point due to overexerting his body. So at least that ability has a weakness, and thus he only ever uses it sparingly. To me, that's the way a transformation/power-up should be. Something that has just as many negative aspects to it as it does positive, forcing them to only be used in the most desperate of situations. And on that note, when Luffy even does have to resort to using that, in most cases its only to buy some time rather than actually helping him defeat an enemy, since if he needs to resort to it in the first place its usually because its an enemy that's much stronger than him even in that state.

The kind of power-ups that I hate the most are the ones that come out of nowhere, like a certain one from Hunter X Hunter.

Even YYH had Yusuke get a Deus Ex Machina sort of power-up, but to be fair that was only a one-time deal, so I don't hold it against the series. I do think that the most interesting fights are when the hero IS clearly at a disadvantage in being significantly weaker and less skilled than his opponent, forcing him to rely on strategy to win. When Yu Yu Hakusho and Hunter X Hunter are at their best, you get some of the best fights in shonen history.

Alright, now I might just be talking out of my ass here, but I vaguely recall a season of Power Rangers in which one Ranger got cursed with some tattoo of a snake or something, and that each time he morphed into a Power Ranger, the Snake would move closer to his neck, and if he morphed too much it would eventually reach his neck and kill him (or just take away his powers since its a kids show, I really don't remember). At any rate, putting the show itself aside, that's a fucking cool idea. It makes the use of a transformation multiple times interesting, as you can transform, but now you have to be REALLY careful and selective of where you choose to use it, as you only have a limited amount to go on.

I'm not going to defend Yusuke Vs. Sensui because the rest of the fight was great, but I never liked how he threw demon blood in there like that and didn't even let Yusuke be the one to defeat him. It doesn't hurt the arc or the series, but I could have done without that whole demon blood plotline.

On the flipside, Kurama eventually learned to not use his transformation as a crutch and apparently surpassed it by the show's end.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 03, 2013, 10:50:53 PM
Alright, now I might just be talking out of my ass here, but I vaguely recall a season of Power Rangers in which one Ranger got cursed with some tattoo of a snake or something, and that each time he morphed into a Power Ranger, the Snake would move closer to his neck, and if he morphed too much it would eventually reach his neck and kill him (or just take away his powers since its a kids show, I really don't remember). At any rate, putting the show itself aside, that's a fucking cool idea. It makes the use of a transformation multiple times interesting, as you can transform, but now you have to be REALLY careful and selective of where you choose to use it, as you only have a limited amount to go on.

That sounds familiar, but I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to. You might want to consult RSW on that.

That one plotline was in Lightspeed Rescue,  and the one it was happening to was the sixth Ranger for that season.

Yeah, that sounds about right. I don't really remember much about Power Rangers, but my basic point was how cool that one idea was. I wouldn't mind seeing it used in other series as well. It just puts so much more weight into using a transformation, and puts A LOT of pressure on the character who can transform to have to make the decision whether to do so or not.

That said, while I am not the hugest fan of the transformation trope myself, I also have to admit that I find something incredibly appealing about them, so I don't hate the trope quite as much as you guys do, but rather feel that its just mishandled. I still geek out at stuff like Saint Seiya and the like, though, so I can't really ever turn on the whole transformation thing in general, but I do hate Deus Ex Machina power-ups.

Oh I definitely don't have a problem with the transformation trope in and of itself. Just when it's overused like in most shounen.

Oh, for stuff like Saint Seiya and Ronin Warriors it's fine since it's their actual armor, (just like in sentai) but it gets annoying when they start throwing in different armor and weapon types on top of it to pad out the action scenes instead of relying on the characters to find a strategy to beat the enemy instead of just picking the right accessory to do the job.

Even Ronin Warriors found ways to work around their limitations and even the White Armor had to be used smart to be effective. I especially think of how Rowan handled the entirety of the second half of the show after his comrades got captured. He could have been next to useless, or even captured, but he fought smart and proved himself to be one of the best fighters in the group and one of the most valuable.

Oh, alright, I misinterpreted what you guys were saying. I like stuff like armor and the like, but only if its their actual base fighting state or a special transformation that has limited use. Other than that, yeah, I hate the over-use of power-ups in most shonen series.

Another trope which I have come to detest:

There always seems to be about just as many bad guys as good guys on the opposing team of villains, and thus it leads into sectioned off one-on-one fights between each individual member and their specific counter-part.

Now, I need to specify this one. I don't mind it when its used right, as in when it makes sense. In a tournament arc its fine, or if circumstances logically make it turn out that way. And example of how to do this right is in Yu Yu Hakusho. In the Chapter Black arc, the heroes wisely try their best to stick together. The enemies just wittingly find ways to divide them up in their favor, and even then the enemies have unique abilities leading to unique fights that make sense in why they needed to fight everyone one-on-one.

Something like Naruto or Beelzebub have plenty of examples of how to do it wrong. In the Sasuke Chase arc each member of the team split-up to fight one of the enemies trying to hold them back to not have to slow down everyone else in chasing down Sasuke. I say bull-shit to that, though, because if each of these guys could take on other ninjas like that in one-on-one fights, then it only makes logical sense that in a 5-on-1 scenario, you could curb-stomp their ass and move on in a matter of a few minutes at most, and then rinse and repeat the process again until nobody is left to oppose you and you don't lose any of your team. Sasuke wouldn't get too far ahead, and when they eventually caught up to him, it would be 5-on-1 yet again, and he'd get his ass kicked.

I just don't like that trope when its used all wrong, and in most modern shonen, it usually is.

The one on one fight thing is pretty overused as a whole. I still think Piccolo and Goku Vs. Raditz, everyone Vs. Nappa and Vegeta, and everyone Vs. the Ginyu Force then Freeza, were some of the best brawls in DBZ but you rarely see it ever come to that anymore. It's like it always has to be villains show up and cause trouble and are way more powerful than heroes > heroes train > heroes seek villains out > each character fights their doppelganger > leaders fight for 50 chapters too long > next arc.

That's actually why the Saint Beast arc is usually the least favorite part of YYH since it totally goes against every other fight in the series outside of ones with special rules like the tournaments and zones. Everybody just stands by and lets everyone else fight while they watch.

I especially hate it when characters perfectly capable of fighting stand on the side-line and watch their ally in a one-on-one fight while not in the setting of a tournament but instead in the situation of a life or death battle, and the reason given for this happens to be something along the lines of: "I cannot interfere, because it is his fight."

Fuck that shit! Get off your lazy ass and help your pal not die, you ass-wipe! :srs:

That happens way too much in modern shonen. One on one fights that last forever instead of any focus on plots.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 03, 2013, 11:46:42 PM
I especially hate it when characters perfectly capable of fighting stand on the side-line and watch their ally in a one-on-one fight while not in the setting of a tournament but instead in the situation of a life or death battle, and the reason given for this happens to be something along the lines of: "I cannot interfere, because it is his fight."

Fuck that shit! Get off your lazy ass and help your pal not die, you ass-wipe! :srs:

The worst part is that they were rushing to help Yusuke against Suzaku when they could have done that had they not sat back let Kuwabara play around with Byakko for two freaking fights and wasted time while their world was swarming with parasites and Keiko and Botan were in direct danger. Hiei and Kurama's fights at least made sense because the others would have got in their way, but the Byakko fight was a real time waster because they simply wouldn't just admit there was something more important than Kuwabara's ego. Which is odd because Kuwabara had no problem submitting against Rando when he was dying in the previous arc, he should have known better than to play around like that. Thankfully that never happens again, but that was a real annoyance.

In fairness to Beelzebub, isn't that supposed to be a parody of shounen anyways?

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 03, 2013, 11:46:42 PM
I especially hate it when characters perfectly capable of fighting stand on the side-line and watch their ally in a one-on-one fight while not in the setting of a tournament but instead in the situation of a life or death battle, and the reason given for this happens to be something along the lines of: "I cannot interfere, because it is his fight."

Fuck that shit! Get off your lazy ass and help your pal not die, you ass-wipe! :srs:

It's even stupider when one of the characters does end up helping for a brief moment, but their ally just tells them to fuck off because that would taint their stupid sense of pride.

Quote from: Rynnec on July 03, 2013, 05:34:48 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 03, 2013, 05:17:39 PM

Quote from: Rynnec on July 03, 2013, 04:49:43 PM
I despise asspull powerups out of nowhere and invincible/omniscient villains with no personality other than "smug master planner" and poorly-explained/pretentious motivations.

I'm also not too fond of "emo" rivals.

I kind of think the rival concept has been way too overdone. Friendly competition is nice, but not when it takes away from the story. Kenshin and Saito was a good rivalry, but I think Naruto and Sasuke might have ruined it for years to come.

Yeah, it's characters like Sasuke that really drag the concept down. Rival's like Vegeta, Saito, Grimmjow, and Char are the ones I prefer. But for the most part, rivalries are better when they start out as one of the central focuses of the story (like in S-CRY-Ed) rather than derail it (like in Naruto).

QuoteHiei and Saito are my favorite rivals/dark heroes. In S-CRY-Ed I liked how

Spoiler

Kazuma didn't beat Ryuhou until the end. I wish the show would get another season.

[close]

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 03, 2013, 11:56:20 PM
That happens way too much in modern shonen. One on one fights that last forever instead of any focus on plots.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 03, 2013, 11:46:42 PM
I especially hate it when characters perfectly capable of fighting stand on the side-line and watch their ally in a one-on-one fight while not in the setting of a tournament but instead in the situation of a life or death battle, and the reason given for this happens to be something along the lines of: "I cannot interfere, because it is his fight."

Fuck that shit! Get off your lazy ass and help your pal not die, you ass-wipe! :srs:

The worst part is that they were rushing to help Yusuke against Suzaku when they could have done that had they not sat back let Kuwabara play around with Byakko for two freaking fights and wasted time while their world was swarming with parasites and Keiko and Botan were in direct danger. Hiei and Kurama's fights at least made sense because the others would have got in their way, but the Byakko fight was a real time waster because they simply wouldn't just admit there was something more important than Kuwabara's ego. Which is odd because Kuwabara had no problem submitting against Rando when he was dying in the previous arc, he should have known better than to play around like that. Thankfully that never happens again, but that was a real annoyance.

Well they didn't know Keiko was in trouble but yeah, Botan being left with demon possessed humans and the world being infested with Makai insects should have made them rush and gang up on Byakko.

Quote from: Rynnec on July 04, 2013, 12:51:24 AM
In fairness to Beelzebub, isn't that supposed to be a parody of shounen anyways?

It started out that way, but it has long since become the very thing that it mocked.

On the other hand, something like Dragon Ball originally parodied most shonen series around at the time. Stuff like the nose-bleed gags, after-image techniques, and other tropes were often mocked and played for comedy in the early parts of that series, and it was actually legitimately funny. Beelzeub's comedy was always cheap and stupid to begin with, IMO.

QuoteIt's even stupider when one of the characters does end up helping for a brief moment, but their ally just tells them to fuck off because that would taint their stupid sense of pride.

Yeah. In something like Rurouni Kenshin you may be able to get away with that because of the whole Samurai code thing. Though, oddly enough they DON'T ever use that excuse in the series except for the final set of fights which sucked, anyways. I specifically recall the Shishio battle, though, where everyone just jumped in one after another to take on Shishio, and Saito even had the forethought to use a surprise attack on Shisho which almost worked. I also like that Saito was willing to downright use dirty cheap shots to kill his enemies, because in the end all that mattered to him was slaying evil, and that's the way it should be.

Now a ton of other more modernized shonen series don't even have that sort of excuse, and ironically you see them pulling the pride bull-shit all the time, but at that point its not a cultural thing, but rather just some untalented mangaka following a specific formula/trope just because everyone else does it and never thinks much of whether it even makes sense in the situation or not. I wouldn't mind this if more shonen series displayed pride as a bad thing that the hero had to learn from, but in most cases they celebrate it, which I just find to be appalling, personally.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 04, 2013, 01:30:01 AM

Quote from: Rynnec on July 04, 2013, 12:51:24 AM
In fairness to Beelzebub, isn't that supposed to be a parody of shounen anyways?

It started out that way, but it has long since become the very thing that it mocked.

On the other hand, something like Dragon Ball originally parodied most shonen series around at the time. Stuff like the nose-bleed gags, after-image techniques, and other tropes were often mocked and played for comedy in the early parts of that series, and it was actually legitimately funny. Beelzeub's comedy was always cheap and stupid to begin with, IMO.

That's not too surprising. Most shounen comedy is pretty awful.

QuoteIt's even stupider when one of the characters does end up helping for a brief moment, but their ally just tells them to fuck off because that would taint their stupid sense of pride.

QuoteYeah. In something like Rurouni Kenshin you may be able to get away with that because of the whole Samurai code thing. Though, oddly enough they DON'T ever use that excuse in the series except for the final set of fights which sucked, anyways. I specifically recall the Shishio battle, though, where everyone just jumped in one after another to take on Shishio, and Saito even had the forethought to use a surprise attack on Shisho which almost worked. I also like that Saito was willing to downright use dirty cheap shots to kill his enemies, because in the end all that mattered to him was slaying evil, and that's the way it should be.

If a character tried that today, most fans would probably deride them for "cheating" or some BS like that. :srs:

QuoteNow a ton of other more modernized shonen series don't even have that sort of excuse, and ironically you see them pulling the pride bull-shit all the time, but at that point its not a cultural thing, but rather just some untalented mangaka following a specific formula/trope just because everyone else does it and never thinks much of whether it even makes sense in the situation or not. I wouldn't mind this if more shonen series displayed pride as a bad thing that the hero had to learn from, but in most cases they celebrate it, which I just find to be appalling, personally.

It's can be fairly justifiable when the character in question doesn't give a shit about justice and just wants a fight to the death with his opponent, which is usually treated as a character flaw, or if the fight is between rivals who really have a grudge or personal history with each other., but otherwise it's just stupid.

For the Naruto example, I can kinda excuse it because Shikamaru was just an amateur at the time, and it was clear that splitting up was one of the primary reasons for the failure of that mission.

Quote from: Spark of SpiritOh yeah! I remember when he did that. I remembered thinking that was actually smart of him to do. Why would he tell him his weakness? He's not an idiot.

There was also a moment in the current arc where Kenpachi outright kills an enemy while they were explaining their powers. Unfortunately it was offscreen, so we never got to see what could have been a legendary moment in all of modern shounen.

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvSZ_HQmZgQ) you go.

Every shonen mangaka should be required to learn from this legendary scene.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 04, 2013, 01:59:18 AM
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvSZ_HQmZgQ) you go.

Every shonen mangaka should be required to learn from this legendary scene.

:worship:

4 day weekend, yes.

I was going to give reasons, but I can't think right now so I'll come back to it later.

Idiotic leading characters
Damsels in distress
Reliance on lead character

Thinking about it now, if somebody were to tell me that they think Hajime no Ippo was the greatest shonen, I wouldn't argue against it.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 04, 2013, 01:59:18 AM
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvSZ_HQmZgQ) you go.

Every shonen mangaka should be required to learn from this legendary scene.

This too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE)

Use your brains- pride is a vice.

Damn, you read my mind, Desensitized! I was JUST about to post that! :thumbup:

I'm too tired to explain the cliches I don't like, so for now I'll just list them:

• Happy Go Lucky Idiot Main Teenage Protagonist who just loves to talk about friendship, is pretty much carefree baring a small tragedy in his past, and also always the one to take down EVERY main antagonist
• The Irritable Teenage protagonist who is a reluctant hero at first and has an attitude but fights for the sake of the plot his friends
• The whiny male protagonist who constantly complains and pouts on his situation and keeps talking about how he wants to get stronger to protect people or some boring ass stock motivation or grievance.

• Reluctant male protagonists that are more or less "normal" guys that have to deal with other eccentric characters as a straight man to the action. Basically Kyon, except not Kyon himself because Kyon is actually a decent protagonist for the most part.
• Tsundere Main Female Protagonist who ultimately is useless in the main story and has to be saved by the other protagonist at some point
• Big Breasted Moe-ish female protagonist who always gets flustered around the main male protagonist and probably has to be rescued or saved at some point, or basically exists just to provide fan-service.
• Stoic or "bad-boy" emo rival who is often bishonen and has a tragic past and maybe even little to no personality
• Unnecessary one on one battles fought out of bullshit reasons like "pride" or whatever
• When another character intervenes in a fight but then lets the main character/other protagonist fight for some bullshit reason. Like, when Laxus intervened in the battle with Hades in Fairy Tail. He could have fucking won that fight, but for the dumb ass reason that "he was not a member of the guild" he gave Natsu a godamn powerup so he could defeat Hades. That was just fucking stupid and made no actual sense to do, especially since that act was completely against Laxus' character. Fairy Tail is just full of dumb bull-shit moments like this, which brings me to my next grievance...
  

• The main protagonist must always fight the main antagonist of the arc, even when it doesn't even feel natural. In Fairy Tail, Natsu ALWAYS fights the arc's main villain, but to be honest in some cases he shouldn't have. In the Tower of Heaven arc Erza should have fought and beaten Jellal; he was HER enemy and she SHOULD have had the power to fight against him, more so than Natsu, who is supposed to be weaker than Erza. But no, Natsu fight and beats Jellal. Bah... It also pissed me off in Naruto that it was Naruto who defeated Kakazu and not Choji and Ino. The battle against Hidan and Kakazu was supposed to be Team 8 getting revenge for Asuna's death, but nope, Naruto intervenes and cheapens the victory as a result.
• Explaining a technique to an enemy or wasting time talking during a fight
• Killing off or maiming established characters just to show the arc's enemy is super strong or whatever
• Speeches involving Friendship or Love or Heart or Dedication or some lame ass moral
• Bullshit power ups that are only introduced to help a character win a random fight and have little to no build to them
• The basic shonen plot formula:
  

  Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 03, 2013, 11:42:25 PM
  It's like it always has to be villains show up and cause trouble and are way more powerful than heroes > heroes train > heroes seek villains out > each character fights their doppelganger > leaders fight for 50 chapters too long > next arc.
  

But although I just listed a shitload of cliches I thoroughly detest, I want to make clear that I consider shonen a demographic and not a genre, and that I don't think just because a particular series is aimed towards a particular group of people it absolutely MUST contain elements that make the series somehow "lesser" entertainment. Basically, when people say things like "it's good for a shonen series" or "it's better than most shonen" I get a little annoyed because the audience to which a work of entertainment is aimed towards has no bearing towards what quality a series can and may have. It is true many writers stay within familiar territory in their work and hence create work that may be derivative in many respects, but to consider the overall body of works created for a particular demographic to automatically be fundamentally flawed and inherently less entertaining and quality than works created for other demographics is just silly. A good series is a good series and a bad series is a bad series and that's that. If a work is good, it should be good, not just "better than most." When a work is bad, it is bad, and there can be no excuse for it's level of quality other than poor writing and planning from it's creator(s). It just annoys me how somehow the series I enjoy created for the shonen demographic must somehow be less entertaining then other series or just "above average" for their "genre" when I legitimately enjoy them and consider them, no buts attached, to be "good" shows/comics.


However, it also occurs to me that I may not have read some of the absolutely abhorred generic shonen's that are out there nowadays, so I'm curious to learn which works besides the ones I am already experienced with are just absolutely terrible.

First let me list the "shonen" series I hate thoroughly dislike:

Naruto and Naruto Shippuden
Bleach past the Soul Society Arc, even though that arc itself is only just good, not great.
Valrave the Liberator
Yu-Gi-Oh! Zexal
Sonic X
Kiba
Bakugan franchise
Beyblade franchise
.hack franchise
Tenchi Muyo! GXP

And then there are the series where I can't say I actively dislike them as they have some good elements to them, but are ultimately too inconsistent in quality, story, characters, humor, or execution for me to really enjoy them a whole lot:

The Prince of Tennis - I don't usually believe in the concept of "guilty pleasures," because mostly I feel the term is an excuse for people to cover up the fact they like something that is unpopular or looked down upon, which I find quite stupid. However, I am completely aware of this manga/anime's flaws and I actually find it stupid, ridiculous, and think it's characters are very stock or otherwise bland. However, be it my love for tennis or the manga's way of making the sport both ridiculous and epic at the same time, I can't help but be drawn to the series from time to time. So while I actually think it isn't very well written, my odd enjoyment of the manga/anime in spite of it's stupidity makes it one of the few things I would consider to be a personal "guilty pleasure" for myself.

Fairy Tail - So many bullshit and poorly written moments and the blandest, most stockiest shonen protagonist ever, but the other characters in the series were enjoyable and a few annoyances aside I did enjoy it for the most part until the end of the Edolas arc, where a stupid and poorly written plot twist marked a stark and rapid decline in the quality of the series to the point where I have dropped it for being terribly unreadable.

D. Gray Man - It's really terrible now, and the protagonists are very, very bland, but the story and villains and the odd character here and there like Miranda and Krory made it a pretty good read for me up until the end of the Noah's Ark arc and then the Alma Karma arc. The plot became shitty fast after that though, and I fucking hate Johnny, so I dropped the series a year and a half ago and haven't looked back since.

Soul Eater - The story was good until the end of the Book of Eibon/Noah arc, but the main characters weren't really interesting until around the Arachnophobia arc anyway, and the supporting characters introduced in that arc, with the exception of Marie, do absolutely nothing for me and really didn't add to the story at all. I really enjoy the villains in the story, though, with Crona and Medusa being personal favorites of mine, but the story and protagonists are too inconsistent in quality for me to really, really enjoy it, and I would have dropped it a while back if not for the fact it's almost over.

Pokemon - I can watch the first five seasons out of nostalgia, and I legitimately think all of Team Rocket's focus episodes in those seasons are really quite good, but otherwise it's really not and was never a very good show. Digimon was way better.

Digimon Adventure 02 and all other series after except Tamers - Like, they are better than Pokemon by a mile and all, but they still are too filler heavy and inconsistently plotted for my tastes.

Dragonball GT - I can never, ever hate GT because it was the series that got me into anime (no, I'm not joking). But...it's just not very good story-wise, although elements of the Baby, Super 17, and Shadow Dragon arcs were good, just not executed in the best way possible.

Buso Renkin - This series is just SO disappointing coming from the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, but it's humorous elements prevent me from really hating it, so I just find it a little mediocre for the most part.

Kekkaishi
Dinosaur King
The Familiar of Zero
Eureka 7
IGPX
Baka and Test
Deadman WonderlandTenchi Muyo! OVA 3
Tenchi in Tokyo
Black Butler
Negima!
Blue Dragon
Voltron
Viewtiful Joe
Mega Man: NT Warrior
MAR
Psyren
Rave Master


Yu-Gi-Oh franchise - The plot is kinda stupid, even back when it was about Yami killing people through twisted games and not about card games, but every series is honestly decent enough entertainment in some respects, with GX and 5D's having some surprisingly interesting plotlines in them despite how easily they could have just simply been cheap, soulless knockoffs.

Attack on Titan - It's got some good moments here and there, but after having caught up on the manga I can honestly say it didn't end up enamoring me with it's plot or it's characters, as I actually don't find much to enjoy about Eren as I find him to just to be a slightly less whiny Ganta for the most part of the story.

And, of course, there are the "shonen" anime I either love, really enjoy, or just plain like a whole lot:

Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo - Which is my favorite show and comic EVER mind you.
Dragonball franchise excluding GT
Dr. Slump
Most if not all of Toriyama's other short series like Cowa! and Neko Majin Z
Yu Yu Hakusho
Hunter X Hunter (both anime series included)
Level E
One Piece
Fullmetal Alchemist franchise
Ranma 1/2
Urusei Yatsura
InuYasha
Mermaid Saga
Death Note
Bakuman
Hikaru no Go
Rurouni Kenshin
Black Cat
School Rumble
Case Closed
Pani Poni Dash
Azumanga Daioh
Yotsuba
Sgt. Frog
The Devil is a Part-Timer
Tenchi Muyo! OVA 1 & 2
Tenchi Universe
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Gurren Lagann
Casshern Sins
Baccano!
Durarara!
Zatch Bell!
Animal Land
Pokemon Adventures - Fuck the anime. THIS manga is how a Pokemon story SHOULD be.
Digimon Adventure
Digimon Tamers
Great Teacher Onizuka
Eyeshield 21
Slam Dunk
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure
Toriko (manga only)
Medaka Box (manga only)
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya
Duel Masters (English Dub)
Sands of Destruction
Kirby: Right Back at Ya!
Mega Man: Star Force
Robotech
Gundam 00
Gigantor
Astro Boy

holy shit, 97 anime/manga! I've seen more "shonen" than I thought...


So that's about 50 or so "shonen" anime and/or manga I like to about 27 I'm not particularily fond of but don't hate to 18 series I really don't like, which is a pretty good ratio of like:eh:hate in my opinion. That said, I don't read or watch every single shonen out there anyway, so I'm sure there are plenty of crappy series I just haven't gotten to, but as far as I'm concerned I can't personally justify hating on series aimed towards the shonen demographic as fervently as others do because I like more series than I hate from the demographic.

Damn! For someone who's too tired, you still posted a lot of shit! :thumbup:

As for your list, though, there are a lot of good points there, but I'll comment on them tomorrow since I should go to bed, now.

Quote from: Cartoon X on July 05, 2013, 01:49:44 AM
Digimon Adventure and all other series except one - Like, they are better than Pok?mon by a mile and all, but they still are too filler heavy and inconsistently plotted for my tastes.

I definitely can't agree with you on the first season of Digimon Adventure. That doesn't have that much filler at all. There are plenty of episodes that don't cover too much story, but almost all of them are plot-related to a specific story arc in some way (Now, Adventure 02 is a series with a fair amount of filler). And, as for the inconsistent plotting, I could see that for the first half of the show since at that time the writers had only planned for 13 episodes and the show got extended to 50+ episodes at the last minute, so stuff was just kind of thrown in right after the end of the 1st arc. That said, everything past the point where the kids get their crests and after Tai comes back to the digital world were plotted through pretty straightforward, so I don't see how it could come off as inconsistent. And, Digimon Tamers has absolutely no filler episodes. Every episodes either progresses the plot or characters in some way. As for all other Digimon series past that, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but I haven't seen any of them except for just a little bit of Xros Wars, so I can't really comment on any of them.

I really wish the writer of School Rumble wrote and adventure manga of some kind (shonen or not) since School Rumble showed how much respect he has for characters and how much fun he has with his stories. He knew how to take character and plot cliches and go beyond them to his advantage.

By the way, you didn't list Martian Successor Nadesico at all. Have you seen it? It's one of my favorites.

MSN is a shonen series? I actually never knew that, myself. I need to get around to watching that series as well, though.

I still contest that if Togashi actually had a good editor to channel his ideas through and actually LISTENED to that editor's feedback, then he'd pretty much be the king of the shonen genre. As it stands, it seems that nobody ever gives him any feedback on any of his material with HXH, which explains how lopsided in quality that series got once it hit the Greed Island arc, and later the Chimera Ant arc.

Also, I'm still waiting for whatever the next series is that Tsugumi Ohba does. I love Death Note and Bakuman, so I can really only expect good things from that author. I just hope that he continues to team up with Takeshi Obata as his artist, otherwise it just wouldn't feel right to me.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 08, 2013, 04:57:22 PM
MSN is a shonen series? I actually never knew that, myself. I need to get around to watching that series as well, though.

Well, he listed Evangelion and Tenchi Muyo, and it's a lot closer to those than something like Monster or Black Lagoon.

QuoteAlso, I'm still waiting for whatever the next series is that Tsugumi Ohba does. I love Death Note and Bakuman, so I can really only expect good things from that author. I just hope that he continues to team up with Takeshi Obata as his artist, otherwise it just wouldn't feel right to me.

I'm glad they haven't rushed anything out yet, because whatever they do next will have pretty high expectations. It could really be anything.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 05, 2013, 02:45:51 AM

I definitely can't agree with you on the first season of Digimon Adventure. That doesn't have that much filler at all. There are plenty of episodes that don't cover too much story, but almost all of them are plot-related to a specific story arc in some way (. And, as for the inconsistent plotting, I could see that for the first half of the show since at that time the writers had only planned for 13 episodes and the show got extended to 50+ episodes at the last minute, so stuff was just kind of thrown in right after the end of the 1st arc. That said, everything past the point where the kids get their crests and after Tai comes back to the digital world were plotted through pretty straightforward, so I don't see how it could come off as inconsistent. And, Digimon Tamers has absolutely no filler episodes.

Hmm, I recalled a lot of filler in Adventure, but truth be told I haven't watched that series in years, so my memory on it is pretty fuzzy. I'll watch some of it on Nicktoons sometime and see. As for Tamers, that series is in my "like/love" portion of my "shonen" list since it was my favorite Digimon series as a kid, but I also haven't seen that show in a few years and was planning to rewatch it sometime this fall.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 08, 2013, 04:57:22 PM

I still contest that if Togashi actually had a good editor to channel his ideas through and actually LISTENED to that editor's feedback, then he'd pretty much be the king of the shonen genre.

I definitely agree Togashi is the best writer in "shonen" manga, but personally, Toriyama will always be "king" for me, a lot because of the fact Dragonball pretty much inspired most of the modern battle-adventure manga in the shonen demographic, but also because his works are consistently enjoyable, well drawn, feel wholly unique, have a great, inconic sense of humor, and are just always great entertainment for me. Toriyama's work isn't as serious nor his stories as richly developed as the works of other mangaka like Togashi or Ohba, but I feel that they embody the image of what a "shonen" manga is and should strive to be: good entertainment and good fun for everyone and anyone.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 08, 2013, 04:57:22 PM
Also, I'm still waiting for whatever the next series is that Tsugumi Ohba does. I love Death Note and Bakuman, so I can really only expect good things from that author. I just hope that he continues to team up with Takeshi Obata as his artist, otherwise it just wouldn't feel right to me.

Yeah, I'm eager for another one of their works too. I hope whatever they come up with next is as unique and well-executed as Bakuman. I feel that only they could produce another entertaining and "nontraditional" work like that and make it a huge, well-deserved success.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 08, 2013, 04:49:16 PM
I really wish the writer of School Rumble wrote and adventure manga of some kind (shonen or not) since School Rumble showed how much respect he has for characters and how much fun he has with his stories. He knew how to take character and plot cliches and go beyond them to his advantage.

Yeah, it would be nice if Kobayashi did an adventure manga, because it would definitely be a fun manga to read (plus, Dragonball is apparently the manga that inspired him to be a mangaka, so making a series like that would probably be a lot of fun for him).

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 08, 2013, 04:49:16 PM
By the way, you didn't list Martian Successor Nadesico at all. Have you seen it? It's one of my favorites.

Nah, I haven't gotten around to watching it yet. It's on my to-watch list though, but I don't know if I'll get to it this summer, since at the moment I'm planning to watch Serial Experiments Lain, Tiger and Bunny, and Fate/Zero, and I STILL have yet to finish Maison Ikkoku (I keep forgetting about it and watching other shows :sweat:).

It's over. It's finally over. (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-07-17/bleach-manga-to-take-5-week-break-before-finale)

Sad thing is, it'll more than likely be miles better than Naruto's finale.

Hmmmm....Well, I've been hearing a lot myself that Bleach is a lot worse than Naruto, but personally I'm just not a fan of either series, so I don't care that much. I will say that I at least managed to stick with reading Naruto up until now (though I have no idea why), whereas I flat-out gave up on Bleach after about 300 chapters. From what people have told me, the series actually managed to get even worse from that point, so if the rest of the series really is on that level of quality, then I can't say I'm disappointed to see this series end. Its kind of long-overdue by this point, if anything.

As for Naruto, this damn Edo Tensei/Bijuu arc has been dragged out WAY too long. Kishimoto has officially become as bad as Kubo when it comes to pacing his stories.

Oh Bleach is terrible, now doubt about it, but at least it's nowhere near the trainwreck that is current Naruto, which constantly goes against its own themes, has laughable villains with terrible motivations (Tobi is like the worst villain in shounen), wanking of certain characters (seriously, we're expected to believe that Itachi's this great guy when he had to murder his entire clan, and needlessly mind-raped his own brother for literally no good reason?) and laughable plot developments, especially concerning the Uchiha.

He's really going to end it with so much unused and unexplored after all this? Wow.

That's what's bugging me about Bleach ending. Since we all know it's going to be a rushjob, there's inevitably going to be a lot of stuff left unexplained at the end of it all, and stuff that will happen, such as Grimmjow's inevitable return and Ichigo dealing with Uryu's sudden turn, won't have the same impact as it would if Bleach had a few more years left.

It's more than likely the latter half of the Arrancar arc and the Fullbring stuff that ultimately killed this manga.

Yeah, it was pretty much the entire Arrancar-Hueco Mundo-Fake Somethingsomething Town (which I still consider one giant single arc despite what some fans say) that ultimately killed Bleach. Too long, too much focus on Soul Reapers, bullshit powers outta nowhere... the same old complaints we've had for years. I'm almost sick of complaining about it now. It's a rotting corpse of a series at this point.

Naruto... I don't think I hate it anywhere near as much as you guys. This big war arc is pretty underwhelming, but I can still go along for the ride and enjoy it as it is. Though I will say Edo Tensei has pretty much been a big, overspammed shit stain. If you really wanted to bring Madara out, you should have found a better way to right him in. Like, he was still old and connected to tubes, and then used a jutsu to steal someone's youth or some shit. None of these other dead guys should be here. At least not with their minds intact. I'm still holding out hope that Orochimaru will be the big bad, as he always should have been imo.

(Years later, I'm still upset about Deidara's death though. Not only did he die in a fight with Sasuke, but Sasuke survived a god damn nuke. Horseshit.)

Quote from: Nel_Annette on July 17, 2013, 10:19:48 PM
(Years later, I'm still upset about Deidara's death though. Not only did he die in a fight with Sasuke, but Sasuke survived a god damn nuke. Horseshit.)

To be fair, that's only the 2nd most ridiculous incidence of a ninja surviving a nuclear explosion, if you can believe it. The first is how Ryu Hayabusa survives a nuclear explosion from a giant radioactive armadillo (yes, you read that right) by blocking it with....whatever weapon you as the player had out at the time you killed the damn thing. Hell, he even fights 2 of them simultaneously in a later level of the game, and survives that fight as well.

Yet at the same time, stuff like normal swords and arrows can kill him, and there are certain melee attacks which he can't block despite having the power to block a fucking nuke. Go figure. :>

I'm just trying to understand the idea of something in Bleach being rushed.

But still, most of the non-Soul Reapers never got and will never get the focus they could have had to make the manga different.

Quote from: Nel_Annette on July 17, 2013, 10:19:48 PM
Yeah, it was pretty much the entire Arrancar-Hueco Mundo-Fake Somethingsomething Town (which I still consider one giant single arc despite what some fans say) that ultimately killed Bleach.

Everyone I knew that even had a remote interest in Bleach fell off somewhere in this mess. That was what successfully killed a lot of whatever potential the series might have had.

I'm also okay with Naruto's final arc. It's not anything special and taking waaaaay too long, but it could have easily been a lot worse. SJ is gonna be in a lot of trouble when both Naruto and Bleach leave, though. One Piece is the only one left with international appeal and that isn't as high as the other two.

From what I've heard, Toriko's been doing pretty well for them also, granted that like One Piece, its not nearly as huge overseas as Naruto and Bleach were when they started airing over here (which, lets face it, has more to do with luck than anything else), but it would still be enough to sustain SJ's popularity, I believe. Its not like they have much competition from competing weekly shonen magazines, anyways, so I can't see them being in too much trouble when those series end.

Yeah, if it wasn't for One Piece and Toriko still going on, WSJ would be suffering a lot more than it would be from Naruto and Bleach ending, since in Japan, One Piece and Toriko are more popular over there, w When Naruto and Bleach leaves, the 3rd spot will have to be filled by something else. I remember one guy I follow on Twitter said that if it wasn't for OP and Toriko, that WSJ would be in the same state it was when Dragon Ball and Slam Dunk ended. By that I think he meant that they didn't have a big follow up.

Worse than Bleach? Is that even possible?

Quote from: Rynnec on July 17, 2013, 11:38:16 AM
Oh Bleach is terrible, now doubt about it, but at least it's nowhere near the trainwreck that is current Naruto, which constantly goes against its own themes, has laughable villains with terrible motivations (Tobi is like the worst villain in shounen), wanking of certain characters (seriously, we're expected to believe that Itachi's this great guy when he had to murder his entire clan, and needlessly mind-raped his own brother for literally no good reason?) and laughable plot developments, especially concerning the Uchiha.

Meh, I think Bleach is much worse when it comes to those things. Seriously, Ginjo, Aizen, and Juah Bach have zilch consistency in their motivations and characterization, while at least Tobi's has remained the same, even if his reveal as Obito was obvious but still dumb and everything after that is bullshit. Bleach's plot is also way more all over the place. The war arc in Naruto's dragged on too long, and I find it boring as fuck, but even then I have to say the Arrancar arc was ten times worse plus Lost Shinigami and the current 1000 Years War arc are full of complete nonsensical plot developments.

Anyway, why is everybody thinking this ending will be rushed. Kubo just announced the manga's entering it's endgame when he comes back from his break; it could still take a good few months for it to actually end. I honestly don't think we'll see it end this year, but maybe as early as next spring. I doubt it'll feel all that rushed, as aside from Grimmjow, the return of Ganju, Ginjo and Tsukishima (and maybe Aizen), and Ichigo's inevitable confrontation with Uryu nothing else has really much build up in this, None of the villains aside from Juah Bac have been written well-enough to stand out or be cared about, and none of the other protagonists aside from maybe Kenpachi have any need for focus in this final battle, either. With so little to care about, it'll probably still feel dragged out, but I guess I'll just have to see. In any case, I hope Bleach and Naruto's end will give way to some new, better battle shonen series and raise the quality of that genre nowadays as a whole just a tad bit.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on July 17, 2013, 11:53:52 PM
From what I've heard, Toriko's been doing pretty well for them also, granted that like One Piece, its not nearly as huge overseas as Naruto and Bleach were when they started airing over here (which, lets face it, has more to do with luck than anything else), but it would still be enough to sustain SJ's popularity, I believe. Its not like they have much competition from competing weekly shonen magazines, anyways, so I can't see them being in too much trouble when those series end.

Toriko's anime beats Naruto Shippuden consistently in the ratings over in Japan (actually, I think you'll be pleased to know that Hunter X Hunter also tends to beat Naruto Shippuden in the ratings, even if it isn't always in the top 10)), and the new episodes are always one of the top ten animated premieres of the week on Japanese television in general. And One Piece sometimes gets double Toriko's ratings, and is usually No. 4 or 5 in the rankings (it's typically neck and neck with Detective Conan. Also, apparently One Piece is the highest selling manga of all time. I'd say One Piece and Toriko are far, far more popular than Naruto nowadays, much less Bleach.

Jump's competition doesn't hold a candle to One Piece, Toriko, Hunter X Hunter, and Naruto Shippuden in anime ratings. As far as anime goes, baring the super long-running family programs Doraemon and Shin Chan (the former is considered "kodomo" whatever that contains, and Shin Chan is actually a senin), the only major shonen series based off a manga that rivals 'em is Shonen Sunday's Detective Conan, and Magi back when it was still airing. After that, while it isn't based on a manga competing with Jump, Pokemon also consistently beats Naruto Shippuden in the ratings (and both air back to back in Japan), but even it doesn't usually beat One Piece, Toriko, and Hunter X Hunter, so as far as Japanese television goes, Shonen Jump squashes it's competition.

As for manga sales, the top ten selling manga currently running in Japan from the first half of 2013 were:
1. One Piece, which had almost double of what Magi got. -  Weekly Shonen Jump (Shueshia)
2. Magi -  Weekly Shonen Sunday (Shogakukan)
3. Kuroko's Basketball - Weekly Shonen Jump (Shueshia)
4. Attack on Titan - Bessatsu Shonen Magazine (Kodansha)
5. Hunter X Hunter - Weekly Shonen Jump (Shueshia)
6. Naruto - Weekly Shonen Jump (Shueshia)
7. Assassination Classroom - Weekly Shonen Jump (Shueshia)
8. Silver Spoon - Weekly Shonen Sunday (Shogakukan)
9. Fairy Tail - Weekly Shonen Magazine (Kodansha)
10. Terra Formars - Which is Sennin - Weekly Young Jump (Shueshia)
SOURCE: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-06-02/top-selling-manga-in-japan-by-series/2013-first-half (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2013-06-02/top-selling-manga-in-japan-by-series/2013-first-half)

Loosing Naruto may hurt Jump a little bit, but they still have 3 other regular series that sell bunches plus I'm sure Toriko and Kochikame still sell well too, so they'll still have their competition beat even when Naruto ends.

Guess I'm that oddball again. I actually like that long drawn out arc, but can admit that a lot of it was just garbage. But then again, I like the soul reapers over the non-soul reapers. But I do agree that the Fullbring arc killed the series for me as well. I remember there were so many people defending that arc saying that those who didn't like that arc wanted nothing but fights when that wasn't the case at all.

Ever since the fullbring arc though, it's just been hard to really get excited for Bleach. I still read it and am a fan of it. A lot of stuff that's been going on has been interesting, it's just Kubo is wasting so much time on meaningless padding, and it's making it hard to really enjoy these chapters. I liked the war that broke out in SS (even though I feel there was so much stupidity in it on the captain's part), I'm not all that convinced that the quincies are stronger than Aizen, but they have proven to be competent (unlike the silly fullbringers). Despite the harsh things I've said about Bleach in the past (it was once my favorite) I will miss it after it ends (it got me into manga)

As for Naruto, it's been an up and down thing for me. This war had some exciting moments, but at the same time it's had more moments that nearly killed my interest as a whole.

One Piece, yeah, I found it hard to get back into ever since the war with Whitebeard ended. I hate flashbacks, especially when it comes to One Piece since they go on forever, and due to me being away from it that long, when it finally did get back to the current time and everybody reuniting (I hated that by the way, at least on Luffy's part) I couldn't get interested. I may have to read this from the very beginning just to get back into the series since I used to find this to be very good.

Nothing to say about Fairy Tail at all. If anything it's becoming more obnoxious to me.

Quote from: Cartoon X on July 18, 2013, 03:58:13 AM
3. Kuroko's Basketball - Weekly Shonen Jump (Shueshia)

This is the best thing currently running in Jump. I'm glad to see that it's doing so well in sales, too.

I know most people on this forum don't like the empty-headed protagonist that fights for friends because friends are nice and has no real ambition except to be the best, but what type of protagonist would you like to to see more of?

The obvious answer is more like *insert character here* but I want to go a bit further than that. What do you think a protagonist should be striving for and what goal should he have in mind? What type of weaknesses would you think such a character could have and what strengths? Do you think this protagonist (notice I haven't said 'hero' yet, I'm including Light Yagami types) should drive the plot with said weaknesses and the story develop from there to strengthen himself or should the character simply be a member of the plot sort of one cog in the machine that just happens to be the biggest threat to the antagonist?

My main question is about approach to characters. For shonen, the only rule is that it has to relate to kids and preteens in some way, but that doesn't preclude teenagers (like Yusuke) or adults (like Kenshin) as the main characters. What do you think would really resonate for a main character in a shonen?

I can't say there's any particular type I'd like to see more. Really, I just want more variety with shonen protagonists. I wouldn't even mind an empty headed, goody two-shoes as long as they're flesh out and written well.

I don't necessarily mind if a character starts out as an empty-vessel of sorts. They may be dunder-heads at first, but it feels rewarding to experience them grow as characters, and by that I don't mean in terms of the strength of their fists or whatnot, but by the strength of their character. I like to see them make mistakes, and more importantly, LEARN form their mistakes. Basically I like to see them become better people.

For instance, Yusuke is the perfect example of this. In the early segments of Yu Yu Hakusho, he is just a hot-headed punk with a good heart, but doesn't really use his natural talents and strength to anyone's real benefit other than his own. After his revival, however, he slowly but surely starts down the path of growing as a person. He gets physically stronger, sure, but more than that he has to deal with much tougher situations, both in terms of having tough opponents to beat as well as harsh mental barriers to overcome. One of the prime examples of this is in his fight with Doctor. If this were Yusuke earlier on in the series, he'd just be a hot-head and not think to much about how to solve the situation he was in. He'd just punch away and Doctor and be frustrated that he wouldn't become unconscious. However by the time he actually does fight Doctor in the series, he realizes right away that he could easily defeat him, but to stop him would mean to kill him, and that's where Yusuke's real dilemma and struggle arises from. You can tell that to even ponder such things from the get-go, that he had come a long way as a character. Another great example is when Yusuke had the choice to stay back in Demon World initially after Sensui's death to meet Raizen, but he held off on it because he knew his friends and family were far more important to him than a personal grudge he had just developed. Yusuke starts out as a typical shounen protagonist, but he is a very different character by the end of the series.

You also have characters like Kenshin, who have already undergone a lot of development in their past, but they are still far from perfect in the present, as well. Kenshin learns the value of being able to let go of your past and living in the present as he gets to know his new friends and allies, but he also realizes that some old wounds do have to be dealt with, especially when it involves other people. When Enishi emerged as a villain in the Revenge arc, Kenshin knew that he had a responsibility to at least try and help set Enishi on the right path. It would have been easier to get pissed at him and just defeat him in battle to leave him for prison, but by the end of the series Kenshin realized that it wasn't what Tomoe would have wanted, and more importantly, it's not really what he wanted, either. He also learned that his ideals wouldn't always work, so even though he himself would never bring himself to kill, you really got the sense that he never lost respect for people like Saito and Aoshi even if they still chose to do so, because he understood that at the end of the day, they were just following their own ideals, as well.

Really, there is no set principle for what makes a good protagonist. However, to make them interesting, there has to be some element of relate-ability to the character from the get-go. If you just make them an utter bad-ass who destroys every obstacle in their path with ease, then they just become boring, and in many cases downright unlikable. If you make them a character with both a set of distinct advantages and disadvantages to work with (like any normal human being), and have them grow to try and overcome the weaknesses they have as a character (once again, both physical and mental), then I think you have a better chance of making a more memorable and interesting protagonist out of that. They should be someone who starts out like a person we could identify with, and eventually grow into a person that we in some way aspire to be like.

Oh, and I could've also mentioned characters like Onizuka from SJG/GTO, or Takato from Digimon Tamers, or even Ippo from HnI, but I think you guys all get the point of what I mean, regardless. ;)

Quote from: ShadowGentleman on October 01, 2013, 09:00:57 PM
I can't say there's any particular type I'd like to see more. Really, I just want more variety with shonen protagonists. I wouldn't even mind an empty headed, goody two-shoes as long as they're flesh out and written well.

Do you mean better motives, background, power-set, or just general attitude? What might help with better variety is for shonen authors to read more books and watch older adventure movies for character and setting ideas.

But I'm talking about drive, mainly. All my favorite Shonen works have a main character that has a real drive to stop the 'bad' guy beyond because they're 'good'. I think that's an element you don't see too often in shonen (or most anime) these days.

It's probably one of the reasons I really like Kuroko No Basket because the main character simply wants to prove that he matters, his goal is not to personally be the best player of all time, just be the best that he can be to help his team succeed and to show that his goal has merit. I relate to that, and I think most kids do as well. There's something there beyond beating the bad guy because he's bad.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on October 01, 2013, 09:12:40 PMIt's probably one of the reasons I really like Kuroko No Basket because the main character simply wants to prove that he matters, his goal is not to personally be the best player of all time, just be the best that he can be to help his team succeed and to show that his goal has merit. I relate to that, and I think most kids do as well. There's something there beyond beating the bad guy because he's bad.

I like Kuroko and all, but he's a bit too static as a character, IMO. He does change as the series progresses, but that's mainly only after they lose their first big game as a team. After that, his character has some nice growth, and even admits some of his faults, but after that he doesn't change much. His development is quick, rather than gradual.

Actually, on that note, while I have grown utterly tired of HSDK, and am downright disgusted with where the manga ended up, I will give it credit for one thing, in that I think Kenichi's growth was actually handled fairly well. He's a prissy teenager who has absolutely no back-bone at the beginning of the series, and he doesn't become brave or anything right after that, either. He slowly starts becoming a bit more courageous every so often as the series progresses, though, and it got to the point where he barely ever got scared of anything anymore, and even was one of the people rushing into dangerous situations without even being prompted to by anyone else, and it didn't happen in just one single character moment, but instead came about gradually as the series progressed. Now, of course, all of the characters in that manga went to shit, but for a while it was actually doing alright, so I felt that was at least worth mentioning.

Ippo from HnI is probably a better example of Kenichi's type of character, but I still hesitate praising him too much yet, since I still have a long way to go before I catch up with that series, so I still don't know if there are any stumbles in his character development along the way. As it's been handled so far, though, he's easily my favorite shounen sports series protagonist.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on October 01, 2013, 09:10:27 PM
I don't necessarily mind if a character starts out as an empty-vessel of sorts. They may be dunder-heads at first, but it feels rewarding to experience them grow as characters, and by that I don't mean in terms of the strength of their fists or whatnot, but by the strength of their character. I like to see them make mistakes, and more importantly, LEARN form their mistakes. Basically I like to see them become better people.

For instance, Yusuke is the perfect example of this. In the early segments of Yu Yu Hakusho, he is just a hot-headed punk with a good heart, but doesn't really use his natural talents and strength to anyone's real benefit other than his own. After his revival, however, he slowly but surely starts down the path of growing as a person. He gets physically stronger, sure, but more than that he has to deal with much tougher situations, both in terms of having tough opponents to beat as well as harsh mental barriers to overcome. One of the prime examples of this is in his fight with Doctor. If this were Yusuke earlier on in the series, he'd just be a hot-head and not think to much about how to solve the situation he was in. He'd just punch away and Doctor and be frustrated that he wouldn't become unconscious. However by the time he actually does fight Doctor in the series, he realizes right away that he could easily defeat him, but to stop him would mean to kill him, and that's where Yusuke's real dilemma and struggle arises from. You can tell that to even ponder such things from the get-go, that he had come a long way as a character. Another great example is when Yusuke had the choice to stay back in Demon World initially after Sensui's death to meet Raizen, but he held off on it because he knew his friends and family were far more important to him than a personal grudge he had just developed. Yusuke starts out as a typical shounen protagonist, but he is a very different character by the end of the series.

You also have characters like Kenshin, who have already undergone a lot of development in their past, but they are still far from perfect in the present, as well. Kenshin learns the value of being able to let go of your past and living in the present as he gets to know his new friends and allies, but he also realizes that some old wounds do have to be dealt with, especially when it involves other people. When Enishi emerged as a villain in the Revenge arc, Kenshin knew that he had a responsibility to at least try and help set Enishi on the right path. It would have been easier to get pissed at him and just defeat him in battle to leave him for prison, but by the end of the series Kenshin realized that it wasn't what Tomoe would have wanted, and more importantly, it's not really what he wanted, either. He also learned that his ideals wouldn't always work, so even though he himself would never bring himself to kill, you really got the sense that he never lost respect for people like Saito and Aoshi even if they still chose to do so, because he understood that at the end of the day, they were just following their own ideals, as well.

Really, there is no set principle for what makes a good protagonist. However, to make them interesting, there has to be some element of relate-ability to the character from the get-go. If you just make them an utter bad-ass who destroys every obstacle in their path with ease, then they just become boring, and in many cases downright unlikable. If you make them a character with both a set of distinct advantages and disadvantages to work with (like any normal human being), and have them grow to try and overcome the weaknesses they have as a character (once again, both physical and mental), then I think you have a better chance of making a more memorable and interesting protagonist out of that. They should be someone who starts out like a person we could identify with, and eventually grow into a person that we in some way aspire to be like.

Gon is the perfect example of taking the generic shonen boy character and making him original. Gon actually becomes physically stronger as he goes along, but I actually think he becomes worse as a person at the same time (while Killua is the opposite) which makes an interesting twist on the old cliche. He grows increasingly selfish and jerk-ish while still keeping in line with where he came from in the beginning. But at the same time, I don't really like Gon and find he's my least favorite character in HxH and right now I wouldn't care if he left the story entirely whenever Togashi starts up again. Whereas in Yu Yu Hakusho I enjoyed all four of the main characters almost equally despite them all being quite varied and having different goals yet I always rooted for them to succeed. I think he made a gamble with making a character like Gon a main character, but I salute him for trying something new with an old idea even if I find at this point the cliche is not worth exploring anymore.

Even Kenshiro who is basically walking karma has a motive and goal that makes us want to cheer for him to succeed. If he didn't have the same motives he wouldn't be a good protagonist but at the same time he wouldn't be Kenshiro and the story would be worse.

I think this:

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on October 01, 2013, 09:10:27 PMThey should be someone who starts out like a person we could identify with, and eventually grow into a person that we in some way aspire to be like.

is a good way to put it. The story needs to be character-based in that the main character has to be someone we can identify with, but eventually should grow towards something bigger than when he started otherwise the character becomes flat and boring and tends to flat-line the story in the process.

I would guess the main problem with shonen protagonists now is that they just make characters that they think kids will find cool and not characters that kids would find compelling enough to follow on the journey.

I'd like to see more "I do what I want/don't mess with me" anti-heroic types as protagonists. The kind of character that has a lot of flaws and emotional baggage (without coming across as overly angsty or "emo") and can act like a jerk at times, and may not even consider themselves heroic at all, and indeed may be driven by non-heroic motives like revenge, money, or even just looking for a good fight, but ultimately have a heart of gold that drives them to pull off acts of heroism and kindness whenever they can.

More laid-back and/or friendly protagonists would be nice too.

I also echo what E-K and Shadowgentleman said.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on October 01, 2013, 09:20:23 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on October 01, 2013, 09:12:40 PMIt's probably one of the reasons I really like Kuroko No Basket because the main character simply wants to prove that he matters, his goal is not to personally be the best player of all time, just be the best that he can be to help his team succeed and to show that his goal has merit. I relate to that, and I think most kids do as well. There's something there beyond beating the bad guy because he's bad.

I like Kuroko and all, but he's a bit too static as a character, IMO. He does change as the series progresses, but that's mainly only after they lose their first big game as a team. After that, his character has some nice growth, and even admits some of his faults, but after that he doesn't change much. His development is quick, rather than gradual.

Yeah, the character development could be stronger, but in general he's a character I like following. From the first chapter I could tell that he was someone who would want to do something different and that lead me following along. Unlike in battle shonen #5926 where he's just a hot head who wants to not be beaten so easily be the cool rival character.

QuoteActually, on that note, while I have grown utterly tired of HSDK, and am downright disgusted with where the manga ended up, I will give it credit for one thing, in that I think Kenichi's growth was actually handled fairly well. He's a prissy teenager who has absolutely no back-bone at the beginning of the series, and he doesn't become brave or anything right after that, either. He slowly starts becoming a bit more courageous every so often as the series progresses, though, and it got to the point where he barely ever got scared of anything anymore, and even was one of the people rushing into dangerous situations without even being prompted to by anyone else, and it didn't happen in just one single character moment, but instead came about gradually as the series progressed. Now, of course, all of the characters in that manga went to shit, but for a while it was actually doing alright, so I felt that was at least worth mentioning.

Ippo from HnI is probably a better example of Kenichi's type of character, but I still hesitate praising him too much yet, since I still have a long way to go before I catch up with that series, so I still don't know if there are any stumbles in his character development along the way. As it's been handled so far, though, he's easily my favorite shounen sports series protagonist.

Kenichi hasn't changed one bit since D+D just like the story hasn't. The author gave up long ago.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on October 01, 2013, 09:12:40 PM

Quote from: ShadowGentleman on October 01, 2013, 09:00:57 PM
I can't say there's any particular type I'd like to see more. Really, I just want more variety with shonen protagonists. I wouldn't even mind an empty headed, goody two-shoes as long as they're flesh out and written well.

Do you mean better motives, background, power-set, or just general attitude? What might help with better variety is for shonen authors to read more books and watch older adventure movies for character and setting ideas.

But I'm talking about drive, mainly. All my favorite Shonen works have a main character that has a real drive to stop the 'bad' guy beyond because they're 'good'. I think that's an element you don't see too often in shonen (or most anime) these days.

It's probably one of the reasons I really like Kuroko No Basket because the main character simply wants to prove that he matters, his goal is not to personally be the best player of all time, just be the best that he can be to help his team succeed and to show that his goal has merit. I relate to that, and I think most kids do as well. There's something there beyond beating the bad guy because he's bad.

One area I do want to see more variety is drive, like you said. But what I really would like to see is the protagonist having personality traits and attitudes usually reserved for some token member of a team. Like a protagonist whose "the smart guy" and wins his fights mainly through strategy. Although, I don't really read a lot of shonen, so I don't know if this has already been done.  :sweat:

Quote from: Rynnec on October 01, 2013, 09:29:58 PM
I'd like to see more "I do what I want/don't mess with me" anti-heroic types as protagonists. The kind of character that has a lot of flaws and emotional baggage (without coming across as overly angsty or "emo") and can act like a jerk at times, and may not even consider themselves heroic at all, and indeed may be driven by non-heroic motives like revenge, money, or even just looking for a good fight, but ultimately have a heart of gold that drives them to pull off acts of heroism and kindness whenever they can.

More laid-back and/or friendly protagonists would be nice too.

I also echo what E-K and Shadowgentleman said.

I could see that as interesting as long as we have a way to relate with someone so different from the norm from the start. I don't have a thing against anti-heroes except when they're basically villains that are less-evil than the antagonist which tends to not make me care much for either. I like my villains and heroes to be opposites or two-sides of a similar coin that clash.

Quote from: ShadowGentleman on October 01, 2013, 09:38:47 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on October 01, 2013, 09:12:40 PM

Quote from: ShadowGentleman on October 01, 2013, 09:00:57 PM
I can't say there's any particular type I'd like to see more. Really, I just want more variety with shonen protagonists. I wouldn't even mind an empty headed, goody two-shoes as long as they're flesh out and written well.

Do you mean better motives, background, power-set, or just general attitude? What might help with better variety is for shonen authors to read more books and watch older adventure movies for character and setting ideas.

But I'm talking about drive, mainly. All my favorite Shonen works have a main character that has a real drive to stop the 'bad' guy beyond because they're 'good'. I think that's an element you don't see too often in shonen (or most anime) these days.

It's probably one of the reasons I really like Kuroko No Basket because the main character simply wants to prove that he matters, his goal is not to personally be the best player of all time, just be the best that he can be to help his team succeed and to show that his goal has merit. I relate to that, and I think most kids do as well. There's something there beyond beating the bad guy because he's bad.

One area I do want to see more variety is drive, like you said. But what I really would like to see is the protagonist having personality traits and attitudes usually reserved for some token member of a team. Like a protagonist whose "the smart guy" and wins his fights mainly through strategy. Although, I don't really read a lot of shonen, so I don't know if this has already been done.  :sweat:

Oh yeah, I see what you're saying. You want more rounded protagonists that don't just have one trait milked for jokes over other characters. Sadly, that's all over most shonen these days.

In Naruto, does Naruto really need to be an idiot? I mean, really? He was already a clumsy screw-up who had chakra control problems (which was actually explained as a reason quite well- shocker!) and that could have been enough to build on, but they kept going back to the "He's an idiot, let's make a joke at his expense!" well repeatedly. Would the story lose really anything if he wasn't stupid?

Or in Bleach, does Ichigo need to have his generic anger? Does it add anything to the story? Has it ever actually affected anything in the plot? If it doesn't affect what happens in the story at all then why is it a trait that he has in the first place? If every aspect of a character's personality doesn't affect the story in some meaningful way then either the story or the character isn't developed enough, in my opinion.

It's just food for thought. I like stories a lot, but there are certain cliches that simply don't work if you don't know how to use them.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on October 01, 2013, 09:27:45 PMGon is the perfect example of taking the generic shonen boy character and making him original. Gon actually becomes physically stronger as he goes along, but I actually think he becomes worse as a person at the same time (while Killua is the opposite) which makes an interesting twist on the old cliche. He grows increasingly selfish and jerk-ish while still keeping in line with where he came from in the beginning. But at the same time, I don't really like Gon and find he's my least favorite character in HxH and right now I wouldn't care if he left the story entirely whenever Togashi starts up again. Whereas in Yu Yu Hakusho I enjoyed all four of the main characters almost equally despite them all being quite varied and having different goals yet I always rooted for them to succeed. I think he made a gamble with making a character like Gon a main character, but I salute him for trying something new with an old idea even if I find at this point the cliche is not worth exploring anymore.

OK, I think you're REALLY stretching that idea with Gon. First of all, Gon does not become more selfish in previous arcs before the Chimera Ant incident. Remember how he goes out of his way to help Killua in the York Shin City arc? When Pakunoda asks him why, he says its because he doesn't want his friend to become a cold blooded killer in trying to attain his revenge. These are clearly not the words of a selfish and jerkish person. Gon more or less doesn't change much as a character in Greed Island, either. Now what you say DOES apply to the Chimera Ant arc, but you didn't mention the reason why his character goes through that development. Togashi didn't just do that to be edgy and dark, but rather he showed us how dangerous Gon's idealism was, and how bad he was at dealing with the guilt of Kite's death. He tried to remain optimistic and convinced himself that there was a way to bring him back. As reality slowly started to hit him over time, his mental condition grew worse and worse. So, THAT's what made it an interesting development. Also, Gon accepts responsibility for his actions after speaking with his father, so by that point he had overcome his downward mental spiral.

I also cannot agree with you that Gon should be dropped from the story. Yes, he is certainly not a favorite of mine as a solo character either, but Gon's strength as a character comes from how he affects and changes the attitudes of other characters. Take a moment to think just why Killua, Leorio, Kurapika, Knuckle, Morel, and various other characters changed in the first place. It was all due in some way to interacting with Gon, and as proof of this, think of when they all started their character arcs. It was always after first meeting Gon. So, Gon may not be the best character in the series, but he is undeniably the heart of the series.

I know you don't care much for Hunter X Hunter, but even with its flaws, I still honestly believe that it is by far one of the best modern shounen manga around. I like stuff like Kuroko, Psyren, and a few other recent or currently running shounen, but truthfully most of those series level off at a certain level of quality for me and just play it safe from that point on. Hunter X Hunter tries new stuff and takes risks, and while they don't always work, the series is absolutely unbeatable when it does click together. Personally, I just happen to feel that it has had more good going for it than bad, and since I'm a person who likes to focus on positives over negatives, I really do love this series, and feel that it does have qualities that other contemporary shounen series' authors can learn from.

Quoteis a good way to put it. The story needs to be character-based in that the main character has to be someone we can identify with, but eventually should grow towards something bigger than when he started otherwise the character becomes flat and boring and tends to flat-line the story in the process.

Even if he doesn't write shounen manga, I have to mention that Naoki Urasawa is a master of writing these types of characters. Anyone who wants to see perfect examples of what we're talking about need not look any further than Monster or 20th Century Boys.

QuoteI would guess the main problem with shonen protagonists now is that they just make characters that they think kids will find cool and not characters that kids would find compelling enough to follow on the journey.

This is the biggest problem plaguing the genre. Characters like Ichigo, Oga, Eren, and so forth are pretty much this in a nutshell.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on October 01, 2013, 09:34:09 PMKenichi hasn't changed one bit since D+D just like the story hasn't. The author gave up long ago.

I know. I was only referring to his character development up to that arc in the first place. :P

I didn't say he should drop Gon, just that if he did I wouldn't really care.  ;) But that might also be because, well, he found his dad which was the goal of the story. What else does he have to go on now? But yes, you're right that he did affect all those characters with his incessant optimism (which I admit is his best quality) and he does add a lot to the series. I've just never been compelled much by him outside of his random speeches and much prefer other characters. You're right though, I'm underestimating his importance to the story and why he became the way he did.

There are some good examples of cliches working well, though. MxO's main character was a pretty average guy with no real skills, but he was written as a character first and not to be cool which is probably why it has a cult following. Same with stuff like Psyren or Enigma where the main characters don't stick out, but they are written as characters that fit into the plot and drive it forward and they are also well-liked even if not overly succcessful.

I know it's not anime but I remember thinking Korra's writers could learn a thing or two from Yusuke. I suspect they ended up giving her no character development unintentionally due to them wanting her being a hot head to be entertaining. Togashi figured out how to make Yusuke still Yusuke at his core (for example, he still picked fights all the way up until he faced Yomi) while giving him plenty of character development. Meanwhile, the Korra staff has her basically running in circles with her development. They haven't figured out how to keep her interesting without stifling her growth.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on October 01, 2013, 09:54:36 PM
Or in Bleach, does Ichigo need to have his generic anger? Does it add anything to the story? Has it ever actually affected anything in the plot? If it doesn't affect what happens in the story at all then why is it a trait that he has in the first place? If every aspect of a character's personality doesn't affect the story in some meaningful way then either the story or the character isn't developed enough, in my opinion.

It's just food for thought. I like stories a lot, but there are certain cliches that simply don't work if you don't know how to use them.

That was actually touched on in the story itself (what little story there actually is), but during the crappiest arc of all (fullbringer).

I actually think Ichigo is a solid protagonist. The group on the other hand is the problem. They've become completely overshadowed by the shinigami's to the point where you can remove them entirely and it wouldn't even matter. I probably wouldn't say Ichigo's as good as Yusuke, but he's definitely a solid protagonist. Probably the better one of the big 3, at least to what I prefer.

As far as drive goes... Beats me. I'd probably take anything besides the "I have to protect my friends" theme.

There's a bunch I could say about the problems with character development in most modern shrunken manga, but in true lazy fashion I'll just steal the words of someone else from this AnJ article:

QuoteEqually impressive is how Joe's wildness is handled. Too often in stories do antagonists or "bad" characters do a 180 in their personality under the guise of "character development." [sarcasm]After all, dynamic characters are better than static characters! That's what my English teacher said![/sarcasm] This shit pisses me off to no end. It's all about execution. There's no point in having a character be dynamic if you've essentially reduced him to two polar opposites with no in-between such that the effect is indistinguishable from having two separate flat/static characters. Joe starts off as a wild self-centered hooligan who's not above breaking two or three rules as long as he wins in the end. If Kajiwara and Chiba were poor story-tellers, they'd follow the rule of more change = better characters, and de-fang Joe into a self-less goody two-shoes. It'd make no internal-logical sense for such a deformed Joe to be so stubbornly determined about a self-destructive showdown with Mendoza. Thankfully, Kajiwara and Chiba wisely chose not to cut down on his wildness but merely redirect it.

Pretty much this is how you're supposed to handle character development. I can't stand how that has devolved into beating some 1-dimensional ass-hole in a fight will suddenly make them change their views on the world entirely and will somehow make them less ass-hole-ish.

This is why it baffles me that shit like Nary to gets praised for character development by people who clearly don't know any better.

Also, most tend to stick "character development" usually at the tail-end of some long, boring fight. You can have character development in other places, you know. We just rarely see it as much.

Quote from: Ensatsu-ken on May 03, 2014, 03:57:21 PM


Pretty much this is how you're supposed to handle character development. I can't stand how that has devolved into beating some 1-dimensional ass-hole in a fight will suddenly make them change their views on the world entirely and will somehow make them less ass-hole-ish.

I immediately thought of Gaara and his 180 personality shift when I read this.

Oh, Naruto. :sly:

Or like everyone in Soul Society in Bleach after Aizen's betrayal.

"Oh, now Ichigo = good!"

Yet another reason why 90% of the Soul Society characters are some of the most overrated characters in the history of shounen.

I just wanted to see if I could rank my top 20 favorite story arcs from battle shounen anime/manga. For this reason I have left out "pure" sports series, with the exception of boxing since it can count; as well as more comedic manga/anime like GTO or Shounan Junai Gumi; or battle of wits thrillers like Death Note; or just general slice of life like Bakuman; otherwise this would become a top 50. For the sake of simplicity I'm only doing straight up battle shounen series for this list, though I may attempt incorporating any shounen into the mix later on. This is all based on what I consider to be the best from what I've watched and read:

20. Chimera Ant (Hunter X Hunter)
19. Road to the Japanese Championship (Hajime no Ippo)
18. 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi (Dragon Ball)
17. D-Reaper (Digimon Tamers)
16. Battle Tendency (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)
15. Baroque Works (One Piece)
14. Enies Lobby (One Piece)
13. Namek (Dragon Ball)
12. King Piccolo (Dragon Ball)
11. Revenge (Rurouni Kenshin)
10. Dark Tournament (Yu Yu Hakusho)
09. Jose Mendoza (Ashita no Joe)
08. Marineford (One Piece)
07. Saiyan (Dragon Ball)
06. Red Ribbon Army (Dragon Ball)
05. York New City (Hunter X Hunter)
04. Kyoto (Rurouni Kenshin)
03. Remembrance/Trust and Betrayal (Rurouni Kenshin)
02. Chapter Black (Yu Yu Hakusho)
01. Everything from the Rikiishi arc to the Carlos Rivera arc (Ashita no Joe)

Also, for the record, I'm not sure if Gundam 0080 counts as a shounen or not (I've heard differing claims), and even then I don't consider it a pure battle shounen like these other contenders, hence why I didn't rank it.

Even limiting it to just battle shounen series, that was a really hard list to make and I'm reLly not that pleased with it. Later on I'll need to re-evaluate it and even extend it. If I were to include all shounen in general, I could even potentially make a top 100 list since there are A LOT of great story arcs out there when I stop to think about it.

Except for no. 1, in no particular order:

Baki - Maximum Tournament
Hunter X Hunter - Hunter Exam
Hunter X Hunter - York New City
Rurouni Kenshin - Rememberance
Rurouni Kenshin - Kyoto
YYH - Spirit Detective
YYH - Genkai's Tournament
YYH - Rescue Yukina
Fist Of The Northstar - Shin arc
Fist Of The Northstar - Souther arc (Now this is how you do a short arc.)
DBK - Saiyan
DBK - Cell/Android
DBK - Namek/Frieza
Yu yu Hakusho - Saint Beasts
Afro Samurai - Season 1?
Afro Samurai - Resurrection
Guyver - OVA Disc 1
Rurouni Kenshin - Tokyo
Rurouni Kenshin Jinchu
1. Yu yu Hakusho - Dark Tournament

I have yet to finish rewatching Chapter Black and I've missed half of two episodes, I believe. So that's why it's not listed. Either way, Dark Tournament is my favorite. It explores what makes Yusuke (my favorite anime character) and Genkai tick more than any other arc. Yusuke matures more here than in any other saga and you can't even argue that Genkai has a deeper arc than this one. It's also has a good amount of new characters and no slow down in the action, which can be epic and well written. I think many people who even defend this arc from those who claim it's just a generic tournament arc refuse to say it's worthy of 10 out of 10 because: 1. Chapter Black exists 2. It's a tournament arc. Oh, the irony! Anyway, I love this arc and I had fun watching all of it uncut. It has everything you can want from a battle shonen arc and more.

Since we were on the subject today, I thought I might as well list my top 5 favorite Shounen Jump manga:

1. Rurouni Kenshin- Personally I think that it's latter 3 arcs are unrivaled in terms of story-telling, and it's characters are as well-written as any WSJ manga. The Remembrance arc in particular is one of the greatest story arcs of all time, IMO.

2. Death Note- This is just extreme bias, on my part, but it was the first manga that I ever read.

3. Dragon Ball- Sure, Dr. Slump is probably better, and I plan to read that series someday, but I still find DB to be an indisputable classic. And yes, the Cell saga is it's weak point, but the Buu saga makes up for it. Akira Toriyama can say what he wants about its own work, but it should be noted that he has largely forgotten a lot of details about DB since he's distanced himself so much from it since it's completion, so you have to take what he says with a grain of salt.

4. Slam Dunk- Every modern sports manga has cribbed from this one's formula in some way, but while this one does follow a formula, Inoue Takehiko knows how to keep his matches unpredictable, and also knows how to keep you invested in the story. He would later go on to write more character-driven Seinen manga like Vagabond and REAL, but his first major work still has much merit, and it has possibly the most legendary final match in any sports manga (from what I hear, Kuroko no Basket has tried to reciprocate the intensity and heart of that particular match, and has failed miserably at if, with the current match that's going on in the series).

5. Hunter X Hunter- It wouldn't feel right to not include a Togashi manga on here. The guy is almost a master when it comes to stories and characters. By all means he SHOULD be #1 on this list, but his manga do unfortunately have their detractors. Still, the pros definitely far outweigh the cons, and HXH is his best manga, at least so far (it's still currently running, of course). And yes, since his anime adaptations are usually marked improvements over his already great stories, I find the YYH anime to be the best incarnation of any of his works, but when it comes to manga, I have to give the edge to HXH, myself.

There are plenty of other great WSJ manga, and some that I'm currently in the process of reading like JoJo, but in terms of personal opinion, I firmly believe that those 5 series are the strongest Jump manga that I've read, by far.

Alright, now I'll just rank my top favorite battle shounen manga in general:

1. Ashita no Joe
2. Rurouni Kenshin
3. Dragon Ball
4. Hunter X Hunter
5. Shounan Junai Gumi (It has lots of fighting in it so it counts! Fuck you!)

And then my favorite battle shounen anime:

1. Yu Yu Hakusho
2. Ashita no Joe 2
3. Rurouni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal
4. Hunter X Hunter (1999)
5. Digimon Tamers
6. Zoids: Chaotic Century/Guardian Force
7. Dragon Ball
8. Ashita no Joe
9. Digimon Adventure
10. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure

Favorite Battle Shonen Manga:

1. Ashita no Joe
2. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
    - Part 6: Stone Ocean
    - Part 4: Diamond Is Unbreakable
    - Part 5: Vento Aureo
    - Part 3: Stardust Crusaders
    - Part 2: Battle Tendency (by itself I'd rank this lower than RK, DB, HXH, and OP)
3. Rurouni Kenshin
4. Dragon Ball
5. One Piece
6. Hunter X Hunter
7. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo (well, it's a parody of battle shonen manga, so I'll count it)
8. Ranma 1/2 (Wacky martial arts is 1/2 the premise. I'm counting it.)
9. Astro Boy
10. Animal Land

As for Anime:

1. Ashita no Joe 2
2. Dragon Ball
3. Yu Yu Hakusho
4. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo
5. Ranma 1/2
6. Rurouni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal
7. Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket (I'm unsure if this fits, but screw it, I'm counting it anyway)
8. Hunter X Hunter (1999)
9. Hunter X Hunter (2011)
10. InuYasha: The Final Act

I think that Gundam 0080 does count as shounen, but is don't consider it to be "battle shounen," hence why I didn't rank it (otherwise it'd be really high on my list).

Favorite Battle Shonen Manga:

1. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (Stone Ocean being my favorite part)
2. Dragon Ball
3. Hunter X Hunter
4. One Piece
5. Yu Yu Hakusho

Anime:
1. Yu Yu Hakusho
2. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
3. Dragon Ball
4. Hunter X Hunter (1999)
5. Hunter X Hunter (2011)

Nice lists, CX and VLord.

As far as manga goes, if I could, I would've ranked pre-time-skip OP on there, but everything after that point has just felt markedly inferior to me, personally.

As for JoJo, I might rank it higher after reading parts 4, 5, and 6, but I'm still slogging through part 3 right now since I'm balancing reading it with multiple other series.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 25, 2014, 09:40:55 PM
I think that Gundam 0080 does count as shounen, but is don't consider it to be "battle shounen," hence why I didn't rank it (otherwise it'd be really high on my list).

I counted it because Gundam in general is a mecha battle-series, and 0080 does have those kind of battles in it (even if there aren't that many).

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 25, 2014, 09:53:45 PM
Nice lists, CX and VLord.

Thanks.  :)

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 25, 2014, 09:53:45 PM
As far as manga goes, if I could, I would've ranked pre-time-skip OP on there, but everything after that point has just felt markedly inferior to me, personally.

OP ranks so high on my list mainly because of how good it was pre-timeskip. Even though the stuff after has been mediocre, I can't ignore how much I loved everything from Baroque Works through Marineford. Also, OP was one of the first manga I ever read, alongside Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump, and has been something I've been invested in for nearly a decade now, so unless it becomes godawful or worse in the future I'm just always going to have an appreciation for it.

I always have an appreciation for it....it's just a specific part of it that I appreciate.

As I did earlier in either this thread or the Favorite Anime thread (I honestly can't remember which and I'm too lazy to check), I ranked my favorite story arcs from shounen series, and several OP arcs are among them, for me.

I think that Marineford is one of the top 10 (arguably even top 5) manga story arcs ever, and I'd also rank Baroque Works, Enies Lobby, Thriller Bark, and Impel Down within my top 20-50, so I have plenty of love for the series. It's just that the mediocrity of the last few years of the manga has knocked it down for me, personally.

Here's a discussion point that I've wanted to bring up for a while, but have modern shounen manga and anime gotten considerably more....well, "safe," over the years?

Now, to be clear, I'm not trying to make this one of those "modern shounen suck and only the classics are awesome" discussions, because that's not really what I mean....even if it is completely true....:humhumhum:

It's more that I've noticed the trend that lately, a lot of shounen have gotten considerably less violent and lighter in tone. And yes, I know that there are exceptions to this, but I'm talking about the broad general overview of series as a whole. Fr instance, stuff like JoJo and Dragon Ball could be incredibly violent at times, but both of those were never considered to push the boundaries between shounen and seinen back in the 80's and 90's. Today, most shounen would never go that far, and the ones that do have either been going on for a long time already (such as HXH, which is from the 90's) or usually have an overly dark presentation from the outset (like Attack on Titan), and use the gore to enhance the feeling of being dark and foreboding (which I find to be its way of attempting to compensate for relatively weak writing).

But I don't care that much about the violence factor, because after all I just want a good story, but that's my main problem, actually. Maybe it's just the stuff that I read, but too many shounen seem to be playing it safe with whatever formula that they stick with. None of them ever seem to want to evolve their characters or plots, take on challenging subject matter, or ever really change the status quo. In essence, they don't want seem to want to do anything that they perceive younger audiences might not get, which I think is bull, personally. Series like HSDK, Beelzebub, Bleach, D. Gray-Man, and so on are all criminal of this, just to name a few (but this applies to many more). Stuff like Astro Boy, Black Jack, Ashita no Joe, and many other classics were never afraid to delve into more mature subject matter in a way that didn't necessarily make the reading material inappropriate for younger audiences, but instead rather cleverly brought these important aspects of life to their attention, and presented it to them in a considerably simple and easy to comprehend fashion without ever actually talking down to them. And most importantly, they did this ins careful manner by using SUBTLETY, something which I feel that most modern shounen in general are flat-out incapable of. My case in point is that the few shounen that do try to bring mature subject material to the forefront really do bring it to the forefront in every way possible. They basically scream out "WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REALLY MATURE STUFF RIGHT HERE; THIS IS CUTTING EDGE AND MAKES OUR MANGA DARK AND HIP AND RELEVANT, SO PLEASE LOVE US AND TALK ABOUT HOW PSEUDO-MATURE WE ARE!" Yet, I notice that these sorts of manga either don't have the writing talent to back their mature subject matter and come off as being not nearly as smart as they think they are (such as Naruto), or even if they are decently written, can still be a bit overbearing with painfully obvious symbolism and the aforementioned lack of any subtlety since the characters just seem to be a but too fixated on pointing out how big of a deal the subject matter is, which doesn't feel realistic to me and kind of takes me out of the experience (Magi, on occasion, has done this, and for the record I do like that series).

Anyways, that's just my opinion, and it's what I've noticed, but I'm hardly an expert on the subject, so I want to hear other people's opinions.

Bland and formulaic. Bleach is plenty violent and bloody, but it's still incredibly generic.

I've said it before, but I think it's just evidence of the authors lack of any outside interest besides manga. Togashi was a huge horror/paranormal fan which lead into YYH and Level E being unique, Watsuki had a love of history and samurai, Inoue Takehiko writes sports stories and explores the meaning of the game, Toriyama loved fantasy and fairy tales which explains all his work, and going back further Tezuka was interested in pretty much everything.

Look at our story arc list and what do you see? A story written by someone who cares about education and plays around with it (GTO), a story deep in the world of rock music and questions on industry ethics (BECK), a detective noir that escalates into supernatural craziness (Death Note), and a kid show based on a video game that deals with all sorts of questions on morals and responsibility without being moralizing or heavy-handed (Digimon Tamers)? Now of the modern shonen you just listed, which even come close to that level of interest of matters outside of "writing manga because manga is cool"?

I think it's an insular view of the world that leads to so much generic material out there. "Where's the cool rival?", "What's our main character's motivation? Eh, friendship is good enough.", "In this fight scene the good guy keeps killing the bad guy, but he actually moved a split second before he hit him! Isn't that original?", "This power looks cool, but make sure the side-characters never reach the main character in effort. Oh, and the final battle has to be one on one. Because the fate of the world matters less than the hero's pride.", "Well, the bad guy's dead. So what should the next one look like?"

There's always been a lot of generic stuff out there, but I don't think we've been swimming in it nearly as much as we are now.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 23, 2014, 01:01:52 PM
Bland and formulaic. Bleach is plenty violent and bloody, but it's still incredibly generic.

I've said it before, but I think it's just evidence of the authors lack of any outside interest besides manga. Togashi was a huge horror/paranormal fan which lead into YYH and Level E being unique, Watsuki had a love of history and samurai, Inoue Takehiko writes sports stories and explores the meaning of the game, Toriyama loved fantasy and fairy tales which explains all his work, and going back further Tezuka was interested in pretty much everything.

Look at our story arc list and what do you see? A story written by someone who cares about education and plays around with it (GTO), a story deep in the world of rock music and questions on industry ethics (BECK), a detective noir that escalates into supernatural craziness (Death Note), and a kid show based on a video game that deals with all sorts of questions on morals and responsibility without being moralizing or heavy-handed (Digimon Tamers)? Now of the modern shonen you just listed, which even come close to that level of interest of matters outside of "writing manga because manga is cool"?

Tezuka in particular was very interested in medicine (he actually had a medical degree before he even became a full-fledged mangaka) which you can really see the influence of in Black Jack. He was a also a huge fan of Disney, from what I've read, and particularly had a liking of the Scrooge McDuck character.

And yeah, it just feels like most modern mangaka haven't had any influences outside of any other manga, and worse yet, some of that manga is from their contemporaries who also haven't had any other influences. One of the few modern mangaka who does is Eichiro Oda, but even he hasn't been showing much of that influence lately, and has work has been considerably more bland because of it. In the pre-time era of the series, you could see all sorts of outside influences which really helped his work stand out. For instance, one of his favorite films is The Nightmare Before Christmas, and the Thriller Bark arc of One Piece felt like a huge homage to that, and really felt inspired. We don't get anything like that from the series, anymore. Other mangaka are even worse yet, so it's no wonder that I'm having trouble finding many good currently running shounen manga these days.

QuoteI think it's an insular view of the world that leads to so much generic material out there. "Where's the cool rival?", "What's our main character's motivation? Eh, friendship is good enough.", "In this fight scene the good guy keeps killing the bad guy, but he actually moved a split second before he hit him! Isn't that original?", "This power looks cool, but make sure the side-characters never reach the main character in effort. Oh, and the final battle has to be one on one. Because the fate of the world matters less than the hero's pride.", "Well, the bad guy's dead. So what should the next one look like?"

You forgot the most prominent one: "Does this shot have enough pointless T&A in it? Because we can always afford to add more. The story can wait; this is far more important."

QuoteThere's always been a lot of generic stuff out there, but I don't think we've been swimming in it nearly as much as we are now.

An even generic stuff from back in the day could still oddly feel more inspired than a lot of stuff from today. Take Flame of Recca for example. It largely just copied tropes from so many 90's shounen manga at the time, and relative to a lot of that stuff, it was about as mediocre as you could get, yet comparing it to any of the modern shounen from above that I mentioned, I'd easily take it over any of those (except for Magi, which is actually a good series) since it still feels like its actually still doing something decent with its limited scope of inspiration, as opposed to those other manga, where the creators claimed to be inspired by better series, yet don't show any of what made those other series great in their own work.

And good bride, would it kill anyone to actually let their characters age anymore? In Dragon Ball, we got to see Goku and his friends grow up from childhood into adulthood (hell, Goku is a grandfather by the end of the series). In JoJo we get to see the story unfold through generations of the JoJo family line. In a modern manga like HSDK or Bleach, we spend 500+ chapters of absolutely no progression of any meaning other than the characters apparently getting stronger with each new bad guy, which loses it's relevance after a while. Do fans of that just not want to see the main characters evolve and grow? Are people that desperate to keep to the status quo?

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on September 23, 2014, 12:17:57 PM
Here's a discussion point that I've wanted to bring up for a while, but have modern shounen manga and anime gotten considerably more....well, "safe," over the years?

It's more that I've noticed the trend that lately, a lot of shounen have gotten considerably less violent and lighter in tone. And yes, I know that there are exceptions to this, but I'm talking about the broad general overview of series as a whole. Fr instance, stuff like JoJo and Dragon Ball could be incredibly violent at times, but both of those were never considered to push the boundaries between shounen and seinen back in the 80's and 90's. Today, most shounen would never go that far, and the ones that do have either been going on for a long time already (such as HXH, which is from the 90's) or usually have an overly dark presentation from the outset (like Attack on Titan), and use the gore to enhance the feeling of being dark and foreboding (which I find to be its way of attempting to compensate for relatively weak writing).

Eh...maybe. But there's still plenty of shonen coming out these days that are pretty violent. I mean, look at some at the stuff that happens in Franken Fran.

Spoiler

(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOYHEpmZ.png&hash=25853fef48179d5cef913acacebb3344e49cca81)

(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.citymanga.com%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Ffranken_fran%2F39%2F13.jpg&hash=304aef711f7364a43108b4b8961fa0a555dc5412)

(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhumblehappiness.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F02%2Ffrankenfran_v1_024_025.png&hash=c1c9d81921b6737eabd8f9a69b47e253ed6d7ca7)

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And on the battle-shonen side, here's some stuff that happens in Toriko.

Spoiler

(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.mtcdn.com%2Fmanga%2Fp%2F47%2F358566%2F16.jpg&hash=036cf79a544b5b16b29230fe98671c0ccbb5e333)

(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.mpcdn.net%2Fmanga%2Fp%2F1033%2F440909%2F5.jpg&hash=666d76e21b07c47818e1456284df036881e77a34)

(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fz.mhcdn.net%2Fstore%2Fmanga%2F3660%2F292.0%2Fcompressed%2Fjtoriko_292_018.jpg%3Fv%3D11410358323&hash=f8ff9b6676511076155cbf85a96779cf33d6a41b)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fz.mhcdn.net%2Fstore%2Fmanga%2F3660%2F292.0%2Fcompressed%2Fjtoriko_292_019.jpg%3Fv%3D11410358323&hash=49dde1f5ae4ab225914152193ac38e8af8e6618b)

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^Those last two pages just happened two weeks ago.

Like Spark says, I think the real problem is that a lot of shonen these days are just too formulaic and don't take enough risks with their stories and characters, and otherwise don't do anything to make themselves feel like a fresh experience. A lot of the shonen manga I enjoy keeping up with, like Toriko, Assassination Classroom, and Shokugeki no Soma, are not necessarily innovative for their respective genres, but they do what they do well and get a good grasp on their characters and world and prioritize them over being cool or epic and make sure to stray from genre conventions just enough to give their own flavor on the formulas, and are thus able carve out their own identities, and not feel like they are generic.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on September 23, 2014, 12:17:57 PM
But I don't care that much about the violence factor, because after all I just want a good story, but that's my main problem, actually. Maybe it's just the stuff that I read, but too many shounen seem to be playing it safe with whatever formula that they stick with. None of them ever seem to want to evolve their characters or plots, take on challenging subject matter, or ever really change the status quo. In essence, they don't want seem to want to do anything that they perceive younger audiences might not get, which I think is bull, personally. Series like HSDK, Beelzebub, Bleach, D. Gray-Man, and so on are all criminal of this, just to name a few (but this applies to many more). Stuff like Astro Boy, Black Jack, Ashita no Joe, and many other classics were never afraid to delve into more mature subject matter in a way that didn't necessarily make the reading material inappropriate for younger audiences, but instead rather cleverly brought these important aspects of life to their attention, and presented it to them in a considerably simple and easy to comprehend fashion without ever actually talking down to them. And most importantly, they did this ins careful manner by using SUBTLETY, something which I feel that most modern shounen in general are flat-out incapable of. My case in point is that the few shounen that do try to bring mature subject material to the forefront really do bring it to the forefront in every way possible. They basically scream out "WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REALLY MATURE STUFF RIGHT HERE; THIS IS CUTTING EDGE AND MAKES OUR MANGA DARK AND HIP AND RELEVANT, SO PLEASE LOVE US AND TALK ABOUT HOW PSEUDO-MATURE WE ARE!" Yet, I notice that these sorts of manga either don't have the writing talent to back their mature subject matter and come off as being not nearly as smart as they think they are (such as Naruto), or even if they are decently written, can still be a bit overbearing with painfully obvious symbolism and the aforementioned lack of any subtlety since the characters just seem to be a but too fixated on pointing out how big of a deal the subject matter is, which doesn't feel realistic to me and kind of takes me out of the experience (Magi, on occasion, has done this, and for the record I do like that series).

Anyways, that's just my opinion, and it's what I've noticed, but I'm hardly an expert on the subject, so I want to hear other people's opinions.

There are a lot of series more preoccupied with being edgy rather than truly engaging their subject matter, especially in battle-shonen series. But there are still great series that tackle serious issues really well. A Silent Voice is a fascinating exploration of the consequences of long-term bullying, people with disabilities, guilt and regret, and from both personal experience and observation I feel it nails the mark adeptly, while Silver Spoon takes a look at the tough world of agriculture and farming and presents a coming of age story that looks at the challenges of achieving one's dreams and how things often do not pan out the way one wants. Both series were clearly developed from the personal experiences and interests of their respective authors, and it shows. They rank as two of my favorite manga ever, and my fourth and second favorite manga currently running, respectively.

While I'm not reading any other shonen manga besides those two that I find nearly as well-done on a subject, character, and story level, I do think there's still plenty of enjoyable stuff out there. Maybe later today I'll make a short list of some series I could suggest to other people and why I enjoy them.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on September 23, 2014, 01:30:22 PM

Tezuka in particular was very interested in medicine (he actually had a medical degree before he even became a full-fledged mangaka) which you can really see the influence of in Black Jack. He was a also a huge fan of Disney, from what I've read, and particularly had a liking of the Scrooge McDuck character.

Yup, Tezuka greatest influences were Disney animated features and the works of Carl Banks and Will Eisner. The influence is clear in his style, especially in his earlier and more kid-friendly series. Tezuka was actually already a mangaka (and a successful/renowned mangaka, at that) while he was still in medical school, and chose to stick with it full-time after deciding it was what he enjoyed doing best.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 23, 2014, 01:01:52 PMToriyama loved fantasy and fairy tales which explains all his work

Eh, you're describing Rumiko Takahashi moreso than Toriyama. Toriyama's interests are more in sci-fi, kung-fu movies, crude humor, and automobiles (there's a reason why he frequently drew so many highly-detailed drawings of cars/planes/bikes in all his series), all of which are excessively evident in Dr. Slump. Dragon Ball did take inspiration from Journey to the West, but Toriyama never was too interested in fantasy or fairy tales, rather, he liked a lot of action-y stuff in popular culture (hence why some of the most recurring characters in Slump include Suppaman, a Superman-parody, Parzan, a Tarzan parody, and Obotchaman, an Astro Boy-parody, and why monster movie characters like Godzilla and Gamera make appearances in background scenes every now and again).

I knew you'd respond that there are still violent series, CX, hence why I tried to make it a point to say MOST, not ALL. Looks like that was a futile effort on my part, though. :sweat:

QuoteThere are a lot of series more preoccupied with being edgy rather than truly engaging their subject matter, especially in battle-shonen series. But there are still great series that tackle serious issues really well. A Silent Voice is a fascinating exploration of both the consequences of long-term bullying, people with disabilities, guilt and regret, and from both personal experience and observation I feel it nails the mark adeptly, while Silver Spoon takes a look at the tough world of agriculture and farming and presents a coming of age story that looks at the challenges of achieving one's dreams and how things often do not pan out the way one wants. Both series were clearly developed from the personal experiences and interests of their respective authors, and it shows. They rank as two of my favorite manga ever, and my fourth and second favorite manga currently running, respectively.

True, there are those kinds of shounen series as well, but then it does paint how the battle shounen genre in particular is facing a huge drought right now. It's very telling how currently, most of your favorite running shounen manga are almost anything but battle oriented series.

QuoteWhile I'm not reading any other shonen manga besides those two that I find nearly as well-done on a subject, character, and story level, I do think there's still plenty of enjoyable stuff out there. Maybe later today I'll make a short list of some series I could suggest to other people and why I enjoy them.

To be clear, I do know that there are plenty of great non-shounen manga currently running, like the stuff from Urasawa, as well as REAL, Vagabond, and Vinland Saga, but in regards to shounen series, the great ones are much fewer from what I've seen, and for battle series in particular, they are practically non-existent right now. Toriko may be good, HXH is on hiatus again, and One Piece has been in a real slump for years, IMO. Some of the sports series like KnB and Haikyuu are pretty entertaining, but even those get stale really quickly when they become too predictably formulaic.

Well, a lot of what I'm reading right now are shonen manga, and I enjoy the majority of what I keep up with, so I meant as such.  :P

FTR, here's all the shonen series I keep up with and like/think are good in rough order, excluding OP, HXH, and DC:

Silver Spoon (slice of life/drama)
A Silent Voice (slice of life/drama)
Yotsuba&! (slice of life/comedy)
Toriko (battle-shonen)
Gintama (action/comedy) - Admittedly, I'm not caught up, but I do read the current chapters whenever it's not in a serious arc, and it hasn't dropped in quality.
Magi (battle-shonen)
Shokugeki no Soma (cooking)
Assassination Classroom (action/comedy)
The Seven Deadly Sins (battle-shonen)
Fuuka (slice of life/music)
Magi: Adventure of Sinbad (battle-shonen)
Rin-ne (action/comedy) - This is also the only one of Rumiko Takahashi's series that I'm not a "fan" of, but it's still entertaining for the most part.
Peephole (horror/comedy) - Admittedly kind of a guilty pleasure, but I find it fun to read.
Attack on Titan: Before the Fall (battle-shonen)  - Is actually better than the main series, imo.

Only Silver Spoon and Silent Voice are personal favorites of mine, but I enjoy all these series a fair bit. Some might not be other people's cup of tea, of course, so besides my two favorites I would also broadly recommend Gintama, Yotsuba&!, Soma, and Fuuka to most anyone.

That does highlight the fact that only 5 of those are battle shounen, and of those I really think of Sinbad more like a part of the Magi series than a separate manga, even though it is technically a stand-alone manga that can be viewed on it's own, and only loosely ties in as a prequel to the main series.

That said, even then, how many of those would you honestly say are close to the level of quality of some of the classics that I was mentioning, in terms of telling compelling and straightforward stories while tackling some more mature themes in a more subtle manner? Of those ones mentioned, I only keep up with Magi/Sinbad, and as previously stated, I like the franchise, but I do also find that it's one of those series that wears its moral messages on its sleeves, rather than giving the reader more room for their own interpretation without anything explicitly having to be spelled out for them. Hunter X Hunter has done this as well, ever since the Chimera Ant arc, and while I loved Meruem's development, it was anything but subtle.

Of course, your list also does highlight that I should probably be reading more non-battle-oriented shounen series, as that seems to be where the majority of the writing talent is going in the medium, these days.

To be honest, when was the last time the manga world went nuts over a new battle manga that ended up being mega popular? Naruto? Bleach? One Piece? That's a loooooooooooong time without another huge hit.

I suppose Toriko counts, but it's nowhere near as popular as the other three are worldwide. And still, that's only one. two of the three are probably ending this year, and there's really nothing looking to replace them in popularity any time soon.

Um, Attack on Titan. That's the biggest thing in the anime/manga fan community right now period.

Magi is also incredibly popular, and Sins has been picking up in popularity as well. As far as Jump goes, though it's not technically a battle manga, Assassination Classroom has already become the #2 series running in Weekly Shonen Jump after One Piece.

Attack on Titan still doesn't seem to be a mainstream thing as far as I can see. But sure, okay. I still don't see any of the others as anything all too big. Certainly not on the level of the other three at their peak.

Quote from: Cartoon X on September 23, 2014, 05:16:44 PM
Um, Attack on Titan. That's the biggest thing in the anime/manga fan community right now period.

Magi is also incredibly popular, and Sins has been picking up in popularity as well. As far as Jump goes, though it's not technically a battle manga, Assassination Classroom has already become the #2 series running in Weekly Shonen Jump after One Piece.

Do you mean popular in Japan or in the West? Because I hardly ever see anyone talking about Magi, though I honestly don't visit too many anime boards anymore.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 23, 2014, 05:20:15 PM
Attack on Titan still doesn't seem to be a mainstream thing as far as I can see. But sure, okay. I still don't see any of the others as anything all too big. Certainly not on the level of the other three at their peak.

AOT is airing on Toonami and gets the most views of any show on that block by far. As far as North American anime fandom goes, I don't know how you can get anymore mainstream than that.

That said, I don't consider it a traditional battle shounen series in the same way that I do with One Piece and Dragon Ball. I know that it does technically fit the tropes, though, so I suppose that it counts, but having only one major hit in over a decade is very telling of how dry the market for good battle shounen series is. And at any rate, it's not so much a matter of popularity as it is one of quality. I've seen a fair amount of good series in the genre over the years, but I struggle to think of any that are truly great and memorable.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on September 23, 2014, 05:20:15 PM
Attack on Titan still doesn't seem to be a mainstream thing as far as I can see. But sure, okay. I still don't see any of the others as anything all too big. Certainly not on the level of the other three at their peak.

It was the most streamed anime of last year, people were raving about it in just about every anime blog/anime site online, the series was put on Netflix before the dub ever came out because the demand was so high for it, Fox's ADHD block had a sketch about it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK0xhvtSelA) (the only other individual anime that got one were Pokemon, DBZ, and Naruto), there are hordes of cosplayers at every anime convention, a significant chunk of people outside of anime fandom (aka people who don't really care about anime/normally watch it) have heard of it and a huge number are talking about and watching it, FUNi is making a killing selling their overpriced blu-rays, the anime is not only the highest rated show on Toonami by miles but also regularly the second highest rated show on [adult swim] on saturday nights, only being bested by the 9pm Family Guy, whereas Space Dandy only ever managed to beat The Boondocks in the same timeslot, once, and finally, the manga sells like hotcakes, with multiple volumes of it and it's numerous spinoffs littering the New York Times Bestselling manga list every week for the past year and a half, the first volume having been on the list for 65 weeks CONSECUTIVELY now, which I believe is an all-time record for any individual manga volume, and is also one of the top selling graphic novel series in general in the U.S.

If all of that does not indicate a massive mainstream success, I don't know what is. Honestly, AoT is bigger than One Piece has ever been here.

Also, I forgot to mention this before, but Fairy Tail is also super mega duper successful internationally as well. Maybe not on Titan's level, but pretty damn significantly. It's definitely as popular as Bleach was back in it's prime, if not more.

As for the other three series I mentioned, they are fairly successful though they are not megahits internationally yet. Of course, Sins and Classroom's anime adaptions have yet to premiere which is a make or break thing since more people know series through their anime than their manga, and while it's unlikely they'd reach Titan levels of popularity, I don't think Fairy Tail levels is too unlikely with the right exposure and good adaptions. Classroom's manga has also yet to be released in the States, so until it starts selling in December, it's too soon to say if it'll be as big here as it is in Japan.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on September 23, 2014, 05:22:18 PM
Do you mean popular in Japan or in the West? Because I hardly ever see anyone talking about Magi, though I honestly don't visit too many anime boards anymore.

It's talked about pretty well on most sites and is well known and regarded. The manga is also selling very well for Viz.

Anyway, let me break away from this and address the post of E-K's that I missed before:

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on September 23, 2014, 04:19:12 PM
That does highlight the fact that only 5 of those are battle shounen, and of those I really think of Sinbad more like a part of the Magi series than a separate manga, even though it is technically a stand-alone manga that can be viewed on it's own, and only loosely ties in as a prequel to the main series.

I will admit that the number of currently running battle-shonen that I'm reading that I don't like or have dropped do outweigh the number of ones I enjoy. At the same time, there might be other good ones out there I just haven't read yet. For instance, I know that a lot of people have been digging World Trigger, but I still haven't gotten to it. But I was mainly addressing your statement that there are fewer good shonen manga in general out there than seinin, which I'm not sure is true, since both have an equal amount of crap and generic stuff right now, from what I can tell from my personal experience.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on September 23, 2014, 04:19:12 PM
That said, even then, how many of those would you honestly say are close to the level of quality of some of the classics that I was mentioning, in terms of telling compelling and straightforward stories while tackling some more mature themes in a more subtle manner? Of those ones mentioned, I only keep up with Magi/Sinbad, and as previously stated, I like the franchise, but I do also find that it's one of those series that wears its moral messages on its sleeves, rather than giving the reader more room for their own interpretation without anything explicitly having to be spelled out for them. Hunter X Hunter has done this as well, ever since the Chimera Ant arc, and while I loved Meruem's development, it was anything but subtle.

Well, have you, personally, read any classic shonen manga besides Black Jack and Ashita no Joe that do that? I don't think you can justify and say that the majority shonen manga back in the day were full of subtlety and maturity just by reading two series, and even if you are confident that the other works of Takamori and Tezuka were, the output of two mangaka does not reflect an entire genre.

Now, from personal experience, and having read all three of the manga you named in their entirety, I agree that they are excellent in handling their themes and subject matter. So are a good other few shonen works I've read from Tezuka, including Phoenix, Apollo's Song, and Dororo. Though, of the lot, I will have to point out that Astro Boy was not always good with subtlety. In fact, several stories are blunt and obvious with their messages, mostly the earlier ones rather than the later ones when Tezuka was more experienced, but this still makes it a fairly uneven series on the whole. Nonetheless, just because Tezuka created a lot of good series doesn't mean his work reflects how shonen series were as a whole back in the 60's and 70's. The only other shonen series besides AnJ and Tezuka manga from that time period that I've watched/read even a smidgen of is Barefoot Gen, and while I love the movie and what I've seen of the manga, and it does handle grave and adult subject matter, it's honestly not that subtle about it, at least as far as the movie goes (I dunno how it is in the later parts of the story until I get to read the manga properly). That doesn't make it any less valuable of a work, or any less vivid and powerful of one, mind you (it's also autobiographical, and there's a lot of blunt truth to it), so arguably a lack of subtlety does not always indicate the work is any less well-written, and this is true for a good many series in any demographic/genre.

Moving along to the 80's, and I can only think of two shonen anime/manga I've seen from that decade that handle mature themes with subtlety: Area 88 and the Urusei Yatsura anime and films. Maybe Mermaid Saga as well, but though it's dark and more mature than most shonen it's kind of a stretch to say it handles any really deep subject matter. I any case, none of those three are traditional battle-shonen. When I think of battle-shonen from the decade, the series that come to mind to me are Space Adventure Cobra, Fist of the North Star, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and Dragon Ball: series that were over-the-top in their violence and more action-adventure focused, not caring much for exploring any mature or adult themes. But you don't think less of Dragon Ball for not realistically showing Goku grieve over the death of Krillin a la in AnJ, do you? Those series are what they are, and were good at what they were, and have stood the test of time because they did what they did well. They are simple, fun series that didn't take themselves too seriously, and they succeeded at what they wanted to succeed as.

Come the 90's, and I can really only think of two series fitting the maturity bill, YYH and Rurouni Kenshin. There's still other good shonen manga about, and certainly, lots more battle shonen were being written during this time thanks to Dragon Ball's influence, but outside of the aforementioned series, what can you really say you've read from the decade that really engaged challenging subject matter?

What I'm trying to get across is that I don't think that there were any more shonen series, especially among battle shonen, engaging in challenging or mature subject matter in the genre as a whole back in previous decades compared to now, certainly few with the subtlety demonstrated in AnJ and the cream of Tezuka's crop. As such, I feel that you can't chastise all modern series for not doing only what some of their best predecessors did. This doesn't mean that shonen, and especially battle-shonen, shouldn't be striving for better writing. It goes without saying that poorly written shit like Bleach and Fairy Tail shouldn't be getting made or popular. But at the same time, you shouldn't dismiss all and any series that aren't trying to tackle challenging subject matter either. No, I don't mean something like Magi, which actively brings up such topics, or Bleach, which always gives off the sense it thinks it's smarter than it actually is though it never addresses anything of value, but series like Toriko and Seven Deadly Sins, which only try to be fun series a la the 80's classics, are well-written, and succeed at what they do. All series of this sort might not be good (again, Fairy Tail doesn't try to be anything but "fun," but it's offensively poorly written), but there are those that are and I think manage to be quality, enjoyable series. Of course, I don't mean this for specifically battle-shonen, but modern shonen manga in general. Shokugeki no Soma, Assassination Classroom, Fuuka, etc. all know what they want to be, do what they need to do to be good series, and succeed at twisting their genres to make themselves feel fresh, unique, and entertaining reads.

That said, there are still shonen manga out there that have been made recently and handle mature subject matter well. As I've said before, A Silent Voice and Silver Spoon are the best among those currently running, and Cross Game was excellent in this regard as well (and is also one of my personal favorites). If you are pressed on seeing a modern battle shonen series like this, then Animal Land is your best bet, though I still haven't read the final six volumes so I can't speak for anything beyond the first half of it. Yes, this is only a small amount of series among the vast crop out there, but who knows, there might be more out there that I'm not aware of. And, again, from what I can tell, there's no real evidence that the shonen genre was ever full of series handling challenging, mature subject with tact on the whole. The works of Tezuka and Takamori reflect can only on their skill as mangaka, and can't adequately speak for the skills of the majority of the authors working in shonen manga in the 60's or 70's, and I just can't see much evidence from the bulk of series put out in the 80's or 90's either.

Way to take a point that I made and completely miss it. When did I say that classics manga from Tezuka and other series of that era in general were all subtle and all had the criteria that I was talking about? All I said was that those types of series from that era just aren't done anymore these days. I'm not sure how you take that and turn it into something about me making broad generalizations on an entire era of manga, because to my knowledge, I did not, or if I did, it certainly wasn't intentional.

As for modern shounen series, no, I haven't read everything that's out there, but I'm talking in regard to all of the more popular series that I've seen. And by how our opinions differ on certain modern shounen series, I can certainly say that while I'm sure that there are some battle shounen that I would enjoy well enough upon trying them, there are very few that I would love (if any). Magi is an example of this. While I enjoy the manga well enough, and do legitimately think that the Magnostadt arc is great, I don't love it nearly as much as you or Dalek on the whole. There's a certain level of quality that I want from what I consider to be a great shounen series, and I just haven't found that in any modern shounen for a long, long time, personally. If you think that there are modern ones that I haven't tried that I would find to be outright great, then by all means bring those up, but don't turn this into a "well, not all older manga were hits, either" discussion, because that goes without saying, and wasn't even my point to begin with. My point is that I'm not finding enough high quality shounen from this era because I see too many series that either play it to safe or don't have the writing talent to back their subject material.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on September 23, 2014, 10:59:18 PM
Way to take a point that I made and completely miss it. When did I say that classics manga from Tezuka and other series of that era in general were all subtle and all had the criteria that I was talking about? All I said was that those types of series from that era just aren't done anymore these days. I'm not sure how you take that and turn it into something about me making broad generalizations on an entire era of manga, because to my knowledge, I did not, or if I did, it certainly wasn't intentional.

As for modern shounen series, no, I haven't read everything that's out there, but I'm talking in regard to all of the more popular series that I've seen. And by how our opinions differ on certain modern shounen series, I can certainly say that while I'm sure that there are some battle shounen that I would enjoy well enough upon trying them, there are very few that I would love (if any). Magi is an example of this. While I enjoy the manga well enough, and do legitimately think that the Magnostadt arc is great, I don't love it nearly as much as you or Dalek on the whole. There's a certain level of quality that I want from what I consider to be a great shounen series, and I just haven't found that in any modern shounen for a long, long time, personally. If you think that there are modern ones that I haven't tried that I would find to be outright great, then by all means bring those up, but don't turn this into a "well, not all older manga were hits, either" discussion, because that goes without saying, and wasn't even my point to begin with. My point is that I'm not finding enough high quality shounen from this era because I see too many series that either play it to safe or don't have the writing talent to back their subject material.

Hmm, my bad. I'm sorry I misinterpreted you. Now, if we are talking about just battle shonen specifically, then no, I don't think you'd enjoy series like Toriko or Sins as much as I do because they are simple fun series a la 80's battle shonen and you don't seem to like those kind of series as much judging by your opinions on JoJo's. But if we are talking about shonen manga as a whole, I disagree that there are absolutely none being done anymore, because I've read some series that have come out in the last few years that I think handle mature topics and subject matter very well and rank as some of my personal favorite manga: Silver Spoon, Cross Game, & A Silent Voice. I have a feeling that Silver Spoon might not leave as much impact on you as it does to me, but I do think you would enjoy Cross Game and Silent Voice a fair bit, and they are certainly not "safe" series by any stretch. Also, Franken Fran is basically Black Jack as a horror-comedy with an extra touch of social satire, so I'd highly recommend that as well. I'll tell you right now you are not going to come out of any of these series liking them as much as AnJ, since that is a difficult level of quality for any modern series seinin or shonen to reach, but they are high quality series that I would personally consider "favorites," a label that I have recently started to only apply to the top 10 or top 10% of what I've seen in a particular medium/genre, while I would only consider stuff like Magi, Toriko, or Classroom "good," so take that as you will.

OK, That's a fair retort. I still have a backlog if other series, but I'll try A Silent Voice when it finishes (which I hear should be pretty soon), and I'll check out those other series when I can.

As for being as good as AnJ, that manga is a personal favorite for me, so I'm biased, but also don't expect anything else to give me exactly the same kind of feeling. I can recognize when something is on or above its level if quality, though.

And for the record, I don't actually think that every older shounen series is inherently great. I even pointed out an example of a mediocre one, which was Flame of Recca, but also stated how I still find that to be more entertaining than today's Naruto, Bleach, HSDK, and so on. To be more clear, it's not so much that I'm saying that the quality of shounen manga in general has dropped, because I don't actually believe that. It's more that I find the lows of today's worst shounen manga to be REALLY low (personally worse than most older stuff I've read, even what I don't like, but admittedly I'm not an expert on manga by any means), and, as previously stated, my main dilemma was in struggling to find series that I considered to be the modern equivalent to the "highs" or "peak" of the genre. That's really what I've been trying to get at.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on September 24, 2014, 12:04:42 AM
And for the record, I don't actually think that every older shounen series is inherently great. I even pointed out an example of a mediocre one, which was Flame of Recca, but also stated how I still find that to be more entertaining than today's Naruto, Bleach, HSDK, and so on. To be more clear, it's not so much that I'm saying that the quality of shounen manga in general has dropped, because I don't actually believe that. It's more that I find the lows of today's worst shounen manga to be REALLY low (personally worse than most older stuff I've read, even what I don't like, but admittedly I'm not an expert on manga by any means), and, as previously stated, my main dilemma was in struggling to find series that I considered to be the modern equivalent to the "highs" or "peak" of the genre. That's really what I've been trying to get at.

Yeah, I can agree with this. While I haven't read too many truly bad older shonen, I feel I'd be hard pressed to find a series that was so incredibly popular as Naruto, Bleach, or Fairy Tail, and yet be so awfully, terribly written that it legitimately and frequently infuriates me. With such series being uber popular, it can be had to discern the cream of the crop sometimes, especially since a lot of untraditional battle shonen and those outside the genre rarely get to be nearly as popular in the western fandom, even if they may be of significantly better quality.

I heard that Psyren was an interesting shounen series that had a bit of a cult following, but ended up being prematurely canceled because not enough people were reading it. Desensitized recommended that one to me. I believe that Mx0 suffered a similar fate, and I heard a lot of good things about that as well.

 :>

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on September 24, 2014, 12:27:59 AM
I heard that Psyren was an interesting shounen series that had a bit of a cult following, but ended up being prematurely canceled because not enough people were reading it. Desensitized recommended that one to me. I believe that Mx0 suffered a similar fate, and I heard a lot of good things about that as well.

Yeah, those were fun series.

Not juggernauts of quality or future masterpieces like AoT, but solid shonen series.

It's just a shame that some interesting series have to be canceled in favor I'd less interesting but more popular manga, but I suppose that's always been part of the business. It only gets to keep running if it sells, which is a harsh reality, but it does make you wonder why more people don't read those kinds if series, then.

As for massive Juggernauts like Naruto and Bleach, the funny thing is that I didn't even hate them fir a good portion of their runs. For Naruto, everything up to the time-skip was alright, and with Bleach, it was a decent enough shounen up to Soul Society. It's just that their later arcs got so atrociously bad that they actually managed to retroactively hate everything about those series, even if they really were far off from terrible in the beginning. I suppose it speaks volumes for how long ago those series probably should have ended, but it really baffles me that Bleach held it's popularity for quite some time before finally (and deservedly) falling under the radar, and that Naruto is somehow still incredibly popular.

On the plus side, soon they'll be over and allowing room for new series to take their place. Hopefully something better will come along sooner than later. But who really knows with the manga world.

I've been hearing that Bleach will be ending soon....for YEARS! Why should I believe it now if it still hasn't happened yet? :humhumhum:

Top 5 Less Significant Shounen Cliches That Need To Die:

5. Excessive boob jokes/ecchi humor- OK, this is more of a general anime cliche, and I get that some people actually like these, but some series really need to limit this kind of humor. A key example (and just one of many), is HSDK, in which this sort of humor got so abundant that you would literally see a boob or ass shot at least once per page, and I'm not even exaggerating that. The actual jokes about it came a couple per chapter, and it just became more obnoxious than anything else, and was a big factor for why I stopped reading this manga. I don't like these jokes to begin with, but if used in moderation, I an at least tolerate them, but some series don't know what moderation even means.

4. Referring to everything as "that"- Perhaps it may be more of a translation problem, and you don't see it that much in officially translated and published works, so this is a minor one,  but I get sick of seeing characters mention other characters who we're not supposed to know about yet as THAT person or THAT man. It just kind of bugs me when I see it in manga all of the time. Translators should just use something different each time to make it sound more natural in English.

3. Specifically for sports series: most big and talented opponents are total dicks until they get beaten- I understand that this is a way for us to root for the main character(s) to beat them, but it's just lazy writing. While not every series does this, I've seen plenty of modern sports series that have the opponents act like ass-holes just because they are better than everyone else, and then they try to give them a sympathetic back-story by mid-game, but you don't care anymore because you still just see them as dicks. Kuroko no Basket did this with EVERYONE, now that I think about it. Akashi was literally a border-line psychopath, but then he loses to Kuroko and suddenly they're best buds. Either go full-on with them being crazy twats, or make them more 3-Dimensional from the get-go.

2. Explaining every joke- Japan....just....no. Stop it. even you must know the Universal rule of "if you have to explain a joke, then your joke is an unfunny piece of shit." I think your audience is smart enough to get your jokes. And don't tell me that it's a cultural thing, because it isn't, given how many series go against this. Toriyama doesn't have to explain every joke to you in Dr. Slump. Fumoffu doesn't blatantly tell you every anime that it's referencing. So for those manga that just keep doing it in general, stop it. More specifically, I'm looking at you, Oda.

1. Deus Ex Power-Up- Can nobody just use their brain, anymore? It's like anyone's hope for any dilemma is just along the lines of, "well, we totally got dooped by the enemies, but actually there was this thing that we could've done all along that will get you (all of you) stronger super quick, and by all along I mean, that the writer just came up with it because he's a lazy motherfucker just trying to make his week-to-week paycheck."

And before you get all anal with a super wordy response, CX, I'm obligated to tell you that im only being semi-serious here, if you can't tell by the tone of my post. I know that this doesn't apply to all shounen series. It's just stuff that I've noticed in some that I read which bug mea but and that I wanted to make fun of. That's all. :humhumhum:

I completely agree. I passionately hate all those cliches.

Reading through them, I could immediately think of no less than ten examples for each that really pissed me off. Most of them were from Fairy Tail. Which just serves to remind me of how much I fucking hate Fairy Tail.  :srs:

Oh yeah, and remembering your Fairly Tail example, I hate it when eccchi extends its way into scenes that are meant to be taken seriously. HSDK does this a lot, and it's atrocious. I mean, someone could be dying, and literally the next panel is an ass shot.

Another cliche that I absolutely loathe in battle shonen in particular are the "will they or won't they relationships." I consider it to be bad in any medium, but it's the worst when it comes to this genre. Usually a love interest is introduced for the main character, and then they do nothing with the chemistry between the two of them, and either nothing ever comes of the tease, or they end up together by the end even ough they barely ever interacted that much. I find it to be incredibly lazy writing and don't get the point of it. Either develop the relationships between your characters, or don't include these elements in your battle shonen at all. Just leave it to romance manga to actually handle romance. I despise the notion that mangaka just tease at relationships for the sole purpose of pleasing shippers, yet have no actual worthwhile commentary on the human nature of romance. It doesn't bother me so much in something like JoJo's or Dragon Ball, because absolutely no time is spend on romance, anyways. But with more modern manga, there is just enough time devoted to some of this stuff to be considered intrusive to the main story, yet it ends up just becoming a waste of time because it's just teasing and after a few chapters everything goes back to status quo.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. For instance, even though I'm not a huge fan of it, Baby Steps is a manga where the relationship is actually developed and slowly progresses over time, and goes through clear stages. It's not a heavy exploration of the subject material, since the manga is focused more on sports, but that's fine because at least it is something. But then there's something like Bakuman, which is a manga that I love, and even though it's not battle shonen, it still follows many shonen tropes in celebration of the genre, but one of the few that I really don't like is the relationship between the main male and female leads which essentially sets the story of the manga into motion. It's just so cheesy (in a bad way) and underdeveloped for a manga that's generally more down to Earth.

It's not a huge issue that makes me stop reading series, as I'm not a huge fan of romance stories to begin with, but that's not an excuse to not write it well if you choose to include it in your story.

Since we were discussing our favorite Shonen Jump manga a few weeks back, I thought that it'd be interesting to post this list of the top 20 Shonen Jump manga, according to a poll of Japanese readers across all ages: http://m.crunchyroll.com/article/?id=98549

My thoughts are as follows:

20. I've never even heard of this one. Doesn't look like my cup of tea, though.

19. This is on my long list of manga that I've been meaning to get around to reading for several years, but I honestly just sort of keep forgetting that it exists.

18. Most of these votes must have come from younger readers who don't know any better.  It's a good manga, but it's way too early to be saying that it's anywhere near a top 20, especially since it isn't even finished yet, and clearly still has a long way to go. It's just the hot thing right now, which is why it's in here, and personally I prefer the anime.

17. No. Just, no.

16. Even more just no.

15. Now, this manga at this spot actually makes sense for a change.

14. This is another choice that I can personally get behind. It's just such a fun read.

13. Eh, I would have preferred it to be much higher, but it's at least good that it's on here, indicating that enough Japanese readers can at least see how relevant it still is.

12. Fuck no! Even before this manga became shit, it was just a solid read, but not great enough to ahieve the status of a top 20 in ranking, IMO. This is just another popularity vote, since the manga only recently ended. If it were lower I might have been OK with that, but ahead of #'s 15 and 13? No way in hell could anyone in their right mind agree with that.

11. This is another one that's actually really well placed. I think it's a great manga, but certainly a flawed one, so keeping it just out of the top 10 seems appropriate to me.

10. I haven't read enough of this to judge it, but while the early arc stuff seems perhaps a bit too simplistic for my liking, I'll give this manga the benefit of the doubt.

9. I knew that this one was coming, so instead of my usual fuck no, I'll just say that I'm glad (and honestly even a little surprised) that it's not any higher than this.

8. I really tried getting into both the manga and the anime, and I just couldn't. That said, I'll still acknowledge it as a classic since it did have so much undeniable influence on the genre.

7. Another one that I've personally never heard of before.

6. I read a chapter of this about a year ago and liked it. I really should read more of it at some point in time. It's one do those classic sports manga that had a ton of influence on the genre, much like Ahita no Joe did, albeit this one is much less realistic in its portrayal.

5. While I'm by no means in love with this series yet, I can certainly understand why it deserves to be this high on the list.

4. This one just goes without saying. Its inclusion at such a high spot is enough to let me forgive #12's placement on the list.

3. I watched a few episodes of the anime several years ago, and that's about it. I know that it's ridicuously popukar in Japan, but I have yet to read the manga. I will certainly check it out someday, though.

2. Eh, truthfully, were this pre time-skip, I'd actually be cool with this manga placing so high on the list. At the very least it would deserve it for giving us some of the greatest shonen story arcs ever. However, with all of the stuff from the past 5-years or so,  the manga has really been dragged down in quality. Even then, I could still see it justified as being placed in the top 20, and maybe even the top 10, but certainly nothing within the top 5, but what can you do, it's one of the most popular manga of all time.

1. And....who didn't see this one coming? But, as obvious as it is, and whether you appreciate this manga or not, nobody should be able to honestly deny that this manga deserves to be here. Just the sheer amount of influence it had on the genre absolutely trumps almost any other influential entry in the grand scheme of things. Other classic series influenced formula and story-telling techniques among modern mangaka. This manga outright inspired many people to become mangaka in the first place. And honestly, it's still a great manga that holds up superbly well. I can't stand anyone who discredits it just because they only know it by a sub-par anime adaptation with a bad dub. It's my 2nd favorite Shonen Jump manga of all time for a reason, and if I were to take personal bias out of the equation, even I would rank it as the #1 manga out of sheer importance and its overall level of quality.

Overall, it's a pretty decent list for something that's essentially just a popularity poll. I've at least seen much worse from lists compiled this way, myself, but if I were to make a list of my own, it'd certainly look very different from this one.

Oh, I saw this one before. Rankings on reader popularity lists like this never make sense in an objective sense and are more or less a judgement of how popular these series are, so it was pretty much what I expected, with a few interesting placements that caught my eye. I suppose I could share some thoughts on it:

20 - Yeah, I've heard of this one for years, and basically the kind of series that I always actively avoided. I do know what it's about, and have seen some clips/pages here and there, and watched this review of it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzo-1kkFldw), and it basically seems to be what it looks like on the surface: a generic shonen magical girlfriend/harem series. It seems harmless enough, and decently amusing, but a series like this is a dime a dozen and nothing I've heard about it makes it sound interesting to me. I plan to read most popular manga series, good and bad, sometime down the line, this included, but it's pretty much at the bottom of my reading list alongside similarly popular generic/mediocre series.

19 - Now this is something that's fairly high as a reading priority for me. When I'll get around to it is up in the air, though.

18 - Of all the popular currently running ten-gen Jump series, this is the one that's on here? I guess it still has buzz left from the recent anime. Anyhoo, I'm chugging along through Haikyuu!!, and it's okay, but nothing really unique or standout to me either. I also personally just can't get into it much, so when I do try reading it I basically get through one or two chapters and I'm done for the day. I'd probably enjoy the anime more since the execution seemed better there from what I can compare of it, so I might try and do that sometime if I can get motivated to. But right now, I have to say that this is easily my least favorite of the good currently running manga I'm reading in Shonen Jump. That might change once I get caught up to it...but I'm not holding my breath on that.

17 - Never read it. I listened to the Weekly Manga Recap episode about it, though, (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/podcasts/weekly-manga-recap/37246-weekly-manga-recap-reborn) so I have a basic understanding of it. Again, like To Love Ru, I will read it one day for the sake of having an informed opinion about it, but it's another one of those things that's at the very bottom of my reading list.

16 - I'm somewhat surprised this is on this list. It's sales have dropped a million every year for the past five and it consistently ranks in the bottom five of the magazine these days. Still, it does still technically sell well so it must still be somewhat popular. It's easily the worst currently running manga I'm reading and probably the worst series currently running in Jump, imo, and I'd hope that once it ends it's popularity continues to fade and fade until it's essentially forgotten.

15 - I'm honestly surprised this is not in the top ten. Not much else to say otherwise. It deserves it's popularity.

14 - I'm very surprised this is ranked higher than Death Note. I did like the anime back when I watched it on Jetstream. Don't remember that much beyond a few certain scenes/moments, though. Should probably revisit it as a manga sometime.

13 - Why is this not in the top ten? I thought it was still one of the more relevant older Jump titles these days, especially with those live action movies and whatnot. Well, I guess the fact it made this list at all is indicative of that.

12 - No. I don't hate Kuroko, I really don't. I've read series that offended me worse and are much worse manga. I really, truly enjoyed the first half. But that entire second half of the series and that final game was some of the most tedious, at times infuriating, other times boring, manga I've ever read. It might not be nearly as awful as Bleach or crap like that, but I still can not get behind it being on this list. Vlord asked me yesterday if I thought it was worth reading. I immediately told him no. Immediately. Without pause. Even though it had a strong start, and there were things I enjoyed, by the end, I simply did not feel the journey was worth the time I put into it. There are much better sports manga worth reading more than KnB, and surely other Shonen Jump series worth being on this list more than it too.

11 - Yeah, I'm down with this placement. Seems appropriate for it.

10 - Fairly high on my reading list. Also not surprised about it's placement.

9 - Surprised it's not higher, honestly.

8 - Same as #10 except that I have actually read and watched a tiny bit of it (only like the first volume of the manga and first two episodes of the anime, but still). Somewhat on a tangent, though, I've been reading Sanctuary, a seinin manga the writer Buronson wrote, and is a series generally well praised by a lot of manga readers and also considered by some to be a masterpiece and one of the best manga ever....yeeeaaaah no. I'm two thirds of the way into it, and I really can't take that sentiment seriously anymore. It is not a mature, deeply-written manga by any stretch and is pretty obviously a kind of macho male political thriller fantasy that tries to be "adult" by having lots of sex and dealing with mafia and politics and stuff but is really simplistic about it's messages, characters, and morals at it's core. As such, there are a lot of moments in the series that I find just are too over the top and silly when you really think about them for me to take it seriously. But, I feel that macho sentimentality might work better in an over the top action series like FOTNS, so that might be the writer's strength, and if anything makes me even more curious to read it sometime. Also it probably lacks the blatant and downright offensive sexism of Sanctuary, so that should be a plus too.

7 - Oh hey, if it isn't the longest running (and still running) Shonen Jump series and the flat out longest manga period in volume count of all time! Duh this is on here. I really wish someone would translate more of this, since I can get behind these kind of mainstream anime/manga series that even non-anime/manga fans in Japan like, such as Golgo 13, Oishinbo, Doraemon, etc., but it seems just no one is interested because it's almost 200 volumes long and still going and stuff. Shame. Maybe I'll learn japanese one day, and be able to read it then.

6 - Another duh. It's the biggest and longest running sports manga franchise, after all. Also fairly high on my reading list, though there are other sports manga that I've been made aware of that I'm more interested in at this point in time.

5 - I'm definitely down with this placement. It's my personal favorite Shonen Jump series. Even if I were to consider just Part 4 or Part 6 only, it would still be my favorite.

4 -  Down with this one too. Truly one of the definitive sports manga and shonen manga in general.

3 - Wow, I'm surprised this is so high! At the same time, I can't say I totally disagree, because it does what it does so well and is probably Jump's best comedy manga period. I think when it tries to take itself seriously it's not nearly as strong, but when it actually does serious arcs it can do them really well (and have some strong character development and action when it tries too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4rcipGWxSQ)), so I'd say it's a very well rounded series. The current arc has also been excellent, and I probably would enjoy it even more if I was caught up on the series properly (I really should get around to the Yoshiwara arc, in particular). My only problem with the manga is that it's exhausting to read in chunks at a time. A regular non-action oriented chapter of Gintama is usually so cram packed with dialogue that it can legitimate takes three times longer to read than a single chapter of most other Jump series that I've read, and I can't marathon read it well because of that. I prefer the anime because of that (and I do think a lot of the humor does come across stronger there as well), but the manga is still strong stuff. Again, it's a series I really want to be fully caught up on soon, especially since it's one of three I have left to be fully caught up on to be caught up on every Shonen Jump manga worth being caught up on. Hopefully I can try and accomplish that during the holiday break this year.

2 - Yeah, this was either going to be #1 or #2. It's the fucking highest-selling manga of all time and still easily the most popular currently running manga in Japan. Even though the quality has dragged since the time-skip, even on a list of just the best manga general ever, I still think you could make a strong case for it being somewhere in the top 20.

1 - And DUH DUH DUH! I mean, it was either going to be this or OP at #1, and I personally am glad it's DB. It's pretty much the most influential battle-shonen series, and one of the best manga period.

So yeah, pretty typical. Some things higher than I expected, some lower, but generally unsurprising and what I'd expect the most popular Jump series still are.

I couldn't make an objective Top 20 Shonen Jump series list myself, because I can't think of 20 Jump series that I'm legitimately a fan of and there are too many notable titles like FOTNS and Saint Seiya that I have never read. If I were to try, though, based on everything that I have read, then it would probably look like this:

1. Dragon Ball
2. Rurouni Kenshin
3. Slam Dunk
4. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
5. Death Note
6. Dr. Slump
7. One Piece
8. Bakuman
9. Gintama
10. Hunter X Hunter

Though there are still other Jump series I've read and am a fan of, I either haven't finished or seen enough of them to rank them in a list, so this is basically the best I can manage, which tells me I should get on and read more classic/well-respected Jump series sometime.

On a quick note, for Haikyuu!, I'd really recommend just sticking with the anime. The execution is much better than the manga, even if the story itself is average. It makes it come off as more entertaining than it really is. The manga itself is OK, but I don't get why it's so popular. The art-work is hideous (I mean Togashi-levels of bad), and there is nothing original about the story. It's basically Kuroko no Basket with Volleyball instead of Basketball.

I wouldn't say that KnB is absolutely not worth reading, myself. I'd say that the first half is good, and parts of the second half are good, like the Kaijou rematch and the flashback arc. The stuff with Murasakibara and Akashi were really lame, though, but I don't see it as much of a series where you're only reading it for the "payoff." It's a series where you read it for fun, so in that regard, it still has more good than bad in it, even if went out on a really sour note with a disappointing final game. Would I say that it's worth reading if you haven't read several better sports manga first, like Slam Dunk, Ashita no Joe, Cross Game, and so on? No. But much like Hajime no Ippo, it's worth getting around to for the parts that are legitimately good, and the weaker stuff can just be skipped.

Anyways, good list. I can't fault anything on that, and I've read at least a significant portion of 9 of those series, whereas I've dabbled a bit with Gintama and will likely get to it at some point in time.

Honestly, for a popularity poll, it's still a better list than I would expect. Naruto is considerably lower than it would've been in the prime of its popularity, and both classics and more interesting contemporary series are ranked higher.

I know I'm not giving Kuroko enough credit, and I did enjoy many parts of it, but at the end of the day, looking back on it, I just don't think even experiencing just the good moments were worth reading it. It's fun, sure, but there are other series just as fun, better overall, and have great payoff, so there's no reason to go for it over those series. Hence why when Vlord asked me, I didn't hesitate to tell him that I just didn't feel it wasn't worth reading, and his time would be better spent reading Slam Dunk instead. And I don't think you could disagree with me about that. Of course, if there was someone who really liked reading sports manga, had read most of the best of the genre, and was just looking for another fun series to try, then sure, then I would recommend it. But otherwise, I just don't have a very positive opinion of the series overall, a lot of it for personal reasons, sure, but I just feel I've read manga (I haven't really even read that many sports manga, but still) that were so much more rewarding to read, and did what KnB did in better ways, so even if you would only just read the parts that were good, I just don't see the point unless you really love reading sports manga.

Quote from: Cartoon X on November 14, 2014, 10:12:52 PMI know I'm not giving Kuroko enough credit, and I did enjoy many parts of it, but at the end of the day, looking back on it, I just don't think even experiencing just the good moments were worth reading it.

You see, I don't agree with this. If something is good, then it means it was worth the time. Modern times have spoiled us into saying that something that isn't super high quality isn't worth our time, but the reality is that these types of series are what we get relative to the best out there. You can't expect everything that you read to be Monster or AnJ levels of quality. And by the same token, not everyone might find those series to be great. We only experience what we like by trying them. The fact is that KnB had enough parts that were good that, were I to write a review for it, I'd say that it's at least worth checking out for someone interested in this type of series, though I would recommend other stronger ones above it first. Even so, I wouldn't just decide that it's not with anyone's time if I myself enjoyed a good chunk of it. I'd let others try it and decide for themselves. Now if I found a majority of the series to be shit, then that'd be a different story.

QuoteIt's fun, sure, but there are other series just as fun, better overall, and have great payoff, so there's no reason to go for it over those series. Hence why when Vlord asked me, I didn't hesitate to tell him that I just didn't feel it wasn't worth reading, and his time would be better spent reading Slam Dunk instead. And I don't think you could disagree with me about that.

I already mentioned that, though. My point was that it still doesn't make the manga not worth reading. It just puts it on a lower priority than other series. How do you think I even have backlogs in the first place? I don't just go around only reading or watching stuff that I hear are super amazing, because any fans of any series will paint it out that way. I just go for ones that have a general consensus of being good, and then form my own opinions on it. Case in point: I checked out REAL because it sounded interesting, but I read some reviews on the manga which were positive, and others which said it was too slow and not worth reading for the good parts. As you know, I LOVE that manga, but I never would have had the chance to formulate that opinion for myself had I just listened to the reviews telling me to skip it because there were better manga out there. In other words, I took the general consensus that it had overall good quality to it, and then formed my own opinion from there.

QuoteOf course, if there was someone who really liked reading sports manga, had read most of the best of the genre, and was just looking for another fun series to try, then sure, then I would recommend it. But otherwise, I just don't have a very positive opinion of the series overall, a lot of it for personal reasons, sure, but I just feel I've read manga (I haven't really even read that many sports manga, but still) that were so much more rewarding to read, and did what KnB did in better ways, so even if you would only just read the parts that were good, I just don't see the point unless you really love reading sports manga.

The point, as I stated above, is to let people decide for themselves. Not assume that they will necessarily come to the same conclusion that you and I happened to.

For instance, I've read a good chunk of Baby Steps and think that it's just OK. I've encountered a fan who has read way more sports manga than I have and seems to love it. While I agree that there are better manga than KnB in its genre, I still think it does enough unique stuff to stand out, and while it doesn't have the heart of other sports manga, I think that its still more good than bad, and thus I'd say it's worth a shot (no pun intended) if you have the time and if the concept interests you in the first place. It's what I'd call a lower priority manga, as in one that I wouldnt recommend over certain others, but that I still would say may or may not be worth getting around to depending on who I was recommending it to.

You generally seem to be of the opinion that if it's not top tier material in your opinion, than it's not worth the time. That's fine, but personally I don't operate that way. On that end, I'd recommend some series that I'm not the biggest fan of, myself, over series that I like more. It'd be like me recommending Space Dandy over Kids on the Slope. To me, Space Dandy is decent, but not the best Watanabe work, but at the same time I love Kids on the Slope, yet I know that it wouldn't necessarily appeal to other people the same way, so I'd recommend Dandy first because they'd probably enjoy it more. Another example is recommending Evagelion over Full Metal Panic! the series. I personally prefer the latter, but know that the former would probably resonate with more people (and for that matter, FMP is considered by many to be a mediocre mecha series much in the same way that you consider KnB to be a mediocre sports series, but it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has to agree with it).

I know I went overboard with text trying to explain my point, but that's just due to my poor writing skills. Basically, though, I just feel that it is actually worth recommending something that's good but not great, but just not as a high priority. If I were to write a review on it, I'd say: "despite its problems, it is a good series overall, so check it out if it seems interesting and you've already read some of the better Basketball manga out there." Not: "Well, I did like a significant portion of this series, but avoid it like the plague because it's not a masterpiece by any means and has some lame parts, even if the good stuff outweighs that in the longrun." That logic just doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, I should clarify that I wasn't referring to VLord, who you specifically referred to, but just people in general, or at least manga fans.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on November 14, 2014, 11:00:08 PM
You see, I don't agree with this. If something is good, then it means it was worth the time. Modern times have spoiled us into saying that something that isn't super high quality isn't worth our time, but the reality is that these types of series are what we get relative to the best out there. You can't expect everything that you read to be Monster or AnJ levels of quality. And by the same token, not everyone might find those series to be great. We only experience what we like by trying them.

Eh? You should know that I don't do that. In fact, I've said that underlined statement myself before in that whole conversation about whether there were any great currently running shonen series we had a month back. In fact, in that conversation, I remember you saying something along the lines of "wait a minute CX I'm sure I would reasonably enjoy some of those series you keep up with but I doubt that I would love them" and I was like "well, maybe you won't like them as much as AnJ but I think these are legitimately great series you might enjoy and you should try them out."  :D

The key word here is if I found Kuroko "good." I can't say that about it. I would it decent, serviceable, fun at times, but at the end of the day, the flaws in the series really detracted from the experience for me, and made me bitter about it by the end. It didn't fuel me with the kind of hatred that I have for something like Fairy Tail, and isn't very badly written outside of certain stretches, but the bad about it stuck in my mind more than the good did. When I think about the series, the first things that come to mind are how much I hated Akaishi and so many scenes involving him, how tedious and terrible that final game was, and how dumb I find the antagonists/rivals motivation's in retrospect. Anything good about the series, like the rematch with To'oh, only comes after that, and even then, I remember stuff like how I tired I got at that particular game during the middle stretch, and how much the series dragged for me after that. I can remember parts that I enjoy, and can recognize that I was legitimately into around 60% of the overall story, but at the end of the day, the bad in it ended up being more memorable to me than the good, and is what I have come to associate the series with. So how can I recommend something that I immediately have a negative stigma towards to someone I know? I can't justify that. I might not hate the series, I might not think it's a bad manga at the end of the day, but still, I did not feel satisfied by the series. I wouldn't stop someone from seeking it out if they really wanted to, but if they were to ask my opinion about it, I have to be honest about how I feel about it with them. Maybe they wouldn't feel the same way as me. I'm sure a lot of people might not. In that case they should take my opinion with a grain of salt and check it out anyway. I won't stop them. But I personally just cannot say that I found the series worth reading, and can't recommend it in good conscience because of that. 

Quote
The fact is that KnB had enough parts that were good that, were I to write a review for it, I'd say that it's at least worth checking out for someone interested in this type of series, though I would recommend other stronger ones above it first. Even so, I wouldn't just decide that it's not with anyone's time if I myself enjoyed a good chunk of it. I'd let others try it and decide for themselves. Now if I found a majority of the series to be shit, then that'd be a different story.

That's basically what I said, though. Well, I guess it came across that I didn't think anybody should ever read the series, but I didn't really mean it like that. If you really were interested in the premise and wanted to check it out, I would tell someone "yeah, try it out, but go for some series I think are stronger first." But in the case of someone who is just curious and not particularly interested in the series, and is just like "Hey, I heard about this, what do you think about it?" I have to be honest and say I don't think at the end of the day it was something that rewarded the amount of time I put into reading it, for reasons I outlined above, and as such it isn't really something you need to check out. Again, I wouldn't actively discourage anybody from reading it if they really wanted to, but I don't feel positive enough about it to endorse it, either.

Quote
I already mentioned that, though. My point was that it still doesn't make the manga not worth reading. It just puts it on a lower priority than other series. How do you think I even have backlogs in the first place? I don't just go around only reading or watching stuff that I hear are super amazing, because any fans of any series will paint it out that way. I just go for ones that have a general consensus of being good, and then form my own opinions on it. Case in point: I checked out REAL because it sounded interesting, but I read some reviews on the manga which were positive, and others which said it was too slow and not worth reading for the good parts. As you know, I LOVE that manga, but I never would have had the chance to formulate that opinion for myself had I just listened to the reviews telling me to skip it because there were better manga out there. In other words, I took the general consensus that it had overall good quality to it, and then formed my own opinion from there.

That's what I do too. Again, it boils down to whether I think Kuroko is a "good" manga, which is something that I just can't say about it.

Also, I sincerely doubt there are any such reviews of REAL, so... :>

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The point, as I stated above, is to let people decide for themselves. Not assume that they will necessarily come to the same conclusion that you and I happened to.

Like I said, I wouldn't discourage people from checking it out if they really wanted to, but I'm not going to hide my opinion on the series either.

Quote
For instance, I've read a good chunk of Baby Steps and think that it's just OK. I've encountered a fan who has read way more sports manga than I have and seems to love it. While I agree that there are better manga than KnB in its genre, I still think it does enough unique stuff to stand out, and while it doesn't have the heart of other sports manga, I think that its still more good than bad, and thus I'd say it's worth a shot (no pun intended) if you have the time and if the concept interests you in the first place. It's what I'd call a lower priority manga, as in one that I wouldnt recommend over certain others, but that I still would say may or may not be worth getting around to depending on who I was recommending it to.

And that's fine since that's how you feel about it. It's just not how I feel, though.

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You generally seem to be of the opinion that if it's not top tier material in your opinion, than it's not worth the time. That's fine, but personally I don't operate that way. On that end, I'd recommend some series that I'm not the biggest fan of, myself, over series that I like more. It'd be like me recommending Space Dandy over Kids on the Slope. To me, Space Dandy is decent, but not the best Watanabe work, but at the same time I love Kids on the Slope, yet I know that it wouldn't necessarily appeal to other people the same way, so I'd recommend Dandy first because they'd probably enjoy it more. Another example is recommending Evagelion over Full Metal Panic! the series. I personally prefer the latter, but know that the former would probably resonate with more people (and for that matter, FMP is considered by many to be a mediocre mecha series much in the same way that you consider KnB to be a mediocre sports series, but it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has to agree with it).

Well now this is simply not true. I consider anything that is legitimately entertaining, well-written, and satisfying to be worth reading. It certainly does not have to be what I consider to be top-tier material. For example, I don't think The Seven Deadly Sins is anything necessarily special from other battle-shonen series, but it has good writing, an interesting world and take on a familiar storyline,  characters that I like, can get behind, and be invested in, and overall just provides me with consistent entertainment. It isn't a series I would call "great," but I think it succeeds at what it does and is very enjoyable as a result, and hence I find it well worth reading at this point in time. At the same time, I don't think it's nearly at the same quality as, say, A Silent Voice (different genre but both are on Crunchyroll so whatevs), which is now one of my all time favorite manga. But if someone were to ask me about what series on Crunchyroll to check out and I felt that Sins was more up their alley I would recommend it over ASV. Even if I don't feel the person will like it more I wouldn't discourage people from checking it out first if they are more inclined to do so either. I told as much so to Vlord when he asked me about it. He didn't feel like checking out A Silent Voice yet, but he did decide to check out Sins anyways, read it for himself, and just happened to like it and now keeps up with it as well. In any case, while I have a favorable opinion on it now, if Sins were to ever stop being enjoyable for me, and provide an experience that sours my opinion on it, even if it doesn't become a awful series by any means, then, like KnB, I might no longer have that opinion on it.

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I know I went overboard with text trying to explain my point, but that's just due to my poor writing skills. Basically, though, I just feel that it is actually worth recommending something that's good but not great, but just not as a high priority. If I were to write a review on it, I'd say: "despite its problems, it is a good series overall, so check it out if it seems interesting and you've already read some of the better Basketball manga out there." Not: "Well, I did like a significant portion of this series, but avoid it like the plague because it's not a masterpiece by any means and has some lame parts, even if the good stuff outweighs that in the longrun." That logic just doesn't make much sense to me.

But that's not quite the sentiment I have on the series. My sentiment is "Well, I suppose if I step back and think about it there was a significant portion of this series that I liked, but by the end of the series the bad ended up sticking in my mind much more than the good did, and so while I wouldn't say it's a "bad" manga I can't say I found it to be a "good" one overall either, so while I'm not going to discourage you from checking it out if you are really inclined to do so, I can't say I found it worth the time I put into it, and hence I just can't justify recommending it unless you really love this kind of series." It's a completely subjective opinion that I would only apply in conversations with friends, not an objective review, but those are my personal feelings about the series at the end of the day.

First off, why the hell would you doubt that there is such a review of REAL? It's something that I read a while back, hence why I didn't bother going back to look for a link, but do you really doubt my word that much? And even then, you completely missed the point. I used that as an example. I can list many other examples if that doesn't suit you. FMP, GTO, Yu Yu Hakusho, and many others have received positive, mediocre, and even some negative reviews, and I love all of those anime because I formulated my own opinions on them.

Furthermore, every single point you made is just arguing the same point that you already made. Before you said that it was good, but now you're making a distinction between good and decent. Well, fine, but I don't agree with you, or if I were to go by your standars, than I could also never recommend Magi, One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, or various other shonen that I like to anyone.

But, whatever, that's your opinion. I'm not going to make another wall of text response to it. I highly disagree with your sentiments in this case, though, so let's just leave it at that.

I'm fine with stopping this conversation, but a few things I want to address:

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on November 15, 2014, 03:28:01 PM
First off, why the hell would you doubt that there is such a review of REAL? It's something that I read a while back, hence why I didn't bother going back to look for a link, but do you really doubt my word that much? And even then, you completely missed the point. I used that as an example. I can list many other examples if that doesn't suit you. FMP, GTO, Yu Yu Hakusho, and many others have received positive, mediocre, and even some negative reviews, and I love all of those anime because I formulated my own opinions on them.

It's called a joke, silly. And you say I can't tell when someone's being serious or not.  :>

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Furthermore, every single point you made is just arguing the same point that you already made. Before you said that it was good, but now you're making a distinction between good and decent. Well, fine, but I don't agree with you, or if I were to go by your standars, than I could also never recommend Magi, One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, or various other shonen that I like to anyone.

Well, if you look at my previous posts in this thread, you'll find that I've never actually called it "good."   :humhumhum: Also, since this doesn't seem clear, I will state for the record that I don't "like" Kuroko anymore, so...there.  :P

I was referring to your posts in general, where I do recall you either saying it was good, or at least something above decent. The bottom line is that you made the distinction in your previous post for the first time, so you can't expect me to have accounted for that interpretation in any of your posts before that.

As for KnB, it's a moot poing because I disagree with you. I think it's a good series and I'm perfectly fine with separating the good from the bad (and personally I feel that you overexaggerated how big a portion of the series is actually bad to begin with), hence why I want to drop the argument, because it makes no sense when we don't even agree on the basis of whether a series is good or not to begin with.

Though, by that logic, I must be honest and say that if I thought of KnB along the same standards that you did, I could no longer think of Magi, JoJo's, or Hunter X Hunter as good series, either, even though I like all 3 far better than Kuroko's. :humhumhum:

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on November 15, 2014, 03:45:01 PM
I was referring to your posts in general, where I do recall you either saying it was good, or at least something above decent. The bottom line is that you made the distinction in your previous post for the first time, so you can't expect me to have accounted for that interpretation in any of your posts before that.

Nah, even look back on my final thoughts on the series in the Currently Manga Discussion thread, and you'll see that I never acknowledge it as good, but at best just "mostly enjoyable." Which is not the same thing as good, because right now I would call Sanctuary "mostly enjoyable," and that's another manga where I find the things that weigh it down prevent me from saying I "like" it or calling it "good" either.

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As for KnB, it's a moot poing because I disagree with you. I think it's a good series and I'm perfectly fine with separating the good from the bad (and personally I feel that you overexaggerated how big a portion of the series is actually bad to begin with), hence why I want to drop the argument, because it makes no sense when we don't even agree on the basis of whether a series is good or not to begin with.

Though, by that logic, I must be honest and say that if I thought of KnB along the same standards that you did, I could no longer think of Magi, JoJo's, or Hunter X Hunter as good series, either, even though I like all 3 far better than Kuroko's. :humhumhum:

It would be one thing if we simply disagreed on the series, in which case I wouldn't even respond to this post, but you seem to think that I don't like KnB because of some guidelines I have for what makes a good series and what doesn't. But it isn't a matter of "standards." I don't think KnB isn't a "good" series because of some checklist I have in my head of things a series must do in order to be good. It's a matter of how I personally feel about the series that makes me unable to think of it fondly anymore. The reason I don't like KnB anymore is because by the end of the series everything I liked about it had been weakened by the things I didn't like about it. When I was reading it, things I liked about included Kuroko's interesting role as a support for his teammates, the development of the teamwork between him and Kagami, and Teppei (who was my favorite character in the series) and Hyuuga's backstory and motivations. But the payoff for these things did not satisfy me, and that really disappointed me. Combine this with Akaishi, who is legitimately one of my least favorite characters in any anime/manga series ever, and I hated almost every scene he was in barring the flashback arc and towards the end, the overuse of superpower-ish techniques and gimmicks that came off very Prince of Tennis-esque, and an increasing lack in my ability to invest in the series, even before I finished getting caught up with it and finished the series by reading it on a weekly basis...by the end I just didn't have a favorable opinion about the series overall. Just too many things didn't end up working for me about the series, and the stuff I didn't like recalls much easier than what I did, and a lot of what I did didn't have payoff that I felt was satisfying enough to offset anything I didn't like. You clearly disagree with me, and that's perfectly fine, but understand that this is simply how I feel about the series, and why I would not be able to recommend it to someone I knew if they were to ask me my opinion on it.

I love how you clearly miss the part where I said that you may or may not have called it good, but something that could be interpreted as the equivalent of good before I saw your recent post making a clear distinction. So in other words, your response to me was redundant of what I just said. :>

As for your other response, I never said that you had a checklist of standards or implied that in any way, so I'm not sure where you got that notion from. When I used the word "standards" in the first place, I was simply just implying that the way you judge the series is different from how I do. I also clearly said that I don't see Kuroko as a "payoff" sort of manga on this very thread. I view it arc by arc, or in this case match by match. It's not all about build up to the final match for me, but whether I'm enjoying what I'm reading at the moment. Hence why our views on the series don't match up at all. You view it as one overall story and since the later half of the story didn't go where you like, it weakens the story as a whole. I get that perfectly fine. I just didn't agree with that particular sentiment, per se, but rather I just view the series in a completely different way, where the bad stuff doesn't sour the legitimately good stuff for me.

If I did view series that way, I would also have to apply it to stuff that I like more than KnB, like the examples that I mentioned above, which is what I was getting at. Like, HXH is one of my favorite shonen manga, but I have a shit-ton of problems with it (arguably even more than Kuroko), but since I view each arc separately, I can easily separate the good from the bad, and can even do so within the same arc. Like, the Chimera Ant arc is REALLY a mixed bag for me, but I'm still glad that I stomached the horrid parts for the great parts. I view KnB in much the same way. I don't feel like I wasted my time with a good portion of the series. It was really only 2 or 3 particular matches that I had negative opinions on. It doesn't make me like the ones that I already liked any less, though. That's basically what I'm getting at, and why I'm saying that it's pointless to argue because regardless of how you describe it, we clearly view series in different ways when we judge them, even though in most cases we just happen to come to similar conclusions on them. Obviously this is one of those few exceptions.

This applies to any medium of entertainment, not just shonen or even just manga and anime, but I hate, hate, HATE, "all according to plan" villains. You know, the villains who are 50 steps ahead of everyone else just because the author thinks it's cool. Personally I love it when the hero and villain, or general opposing side are on even ground and just constantly one-upping each other. A good example of this is the confrontation between Light and L in Death Note.

But then you have villains like Madara or Black Zetsu from Naruto, who literally state "this was actually my plan all along" MULTIPLE TIMES EACH in the Shinobi War arc. Those aren't smart villains. That's just bad writing that actually makes them even less interesting than they already were (or weren't, in this case).

On a side note, I also hate heroes who are umpteen steps ahead of the game. It doesn't make them look cool, but just arrogant, obnoxious, overpowered douchebags.

So, I've been thinking about the genre again, lately, and part of the reason for why I was seeking out some American comic books to read was because I did need a break from all of the tropes that kind of drive me up the wall after a while when I read too many battle shonen. It's not the fault of any one particular manga, but it is sort of a thing that burns me out when I read/watch too much of something in the same genre and get a bit ticked off at their predictable tendencies.

That said, I also came to a positive realization about battle shonen tropes after reading something totally different from that genre. There are actually quite a few that I like. I noticed this because I kind of miss some elements of the genre that I have read a lot of, for better or worse, when I'm reading another type of comic. And while I love what I've been reading, recently, I wanted to highlight the top five general shonen tropes that I actually find to be inherently good qualities of the genre. Sure, they can be tarnished by bad writing, but surprisingly, I find that, more often than not, even a lot of the mediocre to bad manga seem to at least manage to get some of these right.

In no particular order, here are five things that I actually personally find are usually done well in the genre:

1. Unique And Interesting Worlds- It's actually pretty typical for a battle shonen manga to be set in its own fictional world. Now, not all of these worlds have the most extensive and in-depth world-building. Some certainly do it better than others, such as One Piece being a lot more in-depth than something like Hunter X Hunter. Yet, either way, I like the possibilities that are set up by having a story take place in a reality that is completely different from our own, and has its own unique set of rules to abide by. No, these might not be as well-explored as the extensive mythos of The Lord of the Rings or A Song of Ice and Fire, but I appreciate the effort all the same, and even for series that do take place in what seems to be a real world setting, I like how they tend to play fast and loose with the rules of that version of our world, such as in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

2. The Theme Of Accepting Failure And Moving Forward- While I've seen this in other genres, I find it interesting to note that a really significant portion of battle shonen have this trope. And what's more, they seem to execute it rather well, even many of the mediocre and bad ones somehow manage to at least get this element right to some extent. For one thing, it's a very good message for younger readers. Without talking down to them, it makes it plainly clear that failure is a very real thing, and it's bound to happen to any of us at some point in time. Even in mediocre sports series like Haikyuu!! or Ace of Diamond, the stand-out moments are the ones where the main characters are crushed by a grueling defeat and have to struggle with their loss and learn to move on. That was probably one of the highlight moments of Kuroko no Basket, as well, and when an actual great manga gets it right, the results are extraordinary and can really get you to feel something yourself, on an emotional level. In particular, classic manga like Dragon Ball, earlier portions of One Piece, Hunter X Hunter, and other battle shonen series have excelled at executing really strong moments where the core characters end up suffering a serious failure that they have to overcome. It really gets someone like me to want to cheer them on, even if they are just a fictional drawing on paper.

3. Over-Expressing Emotions- I once remember in an interview with Bruce Timm and his staff that were responsible for producing the Gotham Knight anime shorts, one of them mentioned how a particular strength of anime was their ability to over-emphasize/express emotional reactions in characters. Bruce Timm himself always said that with BTAS, he wanted to take full advantage of animation and do things that you couldn't portray in real-life. Shonen of many kinds have a particular tendency to do that even more than a lot more mature manga that I've read, as well as other sorts of comic books. What I enjoy about it is that many battle shonen, especially the best ones, manage to do so well in highlighting emotional points in characters and in the height of a story arc that I really feel the impact of those particular scenes. A lot of other comics have plenty of emotional moments as well, and they are great, but I rarely ever get that same sensation as something like the feeling that I get when Ippo gets his knock-out punch against a tough opponent, or that moment in Slam Dunk where Rukawa finally rewards all of Sakuragi's efforts with a moment of complete trust for the most crucial shot of the most important game of their lives, or that epic scene with Whitebeard at the end of Marineford, and too many great moments in Ashita no Joe to name. I just feel that a lot of shonen manga, once again, even some of the lesser ones, manage to really nail this on a more consistent basis that many other types of comics that I see.

4. The Concept That There Is Always Room For Self-Improvement- No, I don't like training arcs (except for in Dragon Ball), but I do love the way that battle shonen in particular seem to highlight the idea that no matter how good you think you are, there is almost always someone better around the corner, or some situation will arise where you will discover that you are indeed not as good as you think you are. However, the lasting theme is that you can always get better. It's a real test of a character's will and determination to push themselves past their perceived limits, another good message for younger readers to abide by, and on top of all of that, gives the characters and story a drive that can often also engage the reader to want to keep following them through their own personal journey. Many of the most addicting manga that I have read excel at this aspect of characterization and story-telling. For as simple as it is, Dragon Ball really embodies this theme, and is the first thing that comes to mind when I think about it.

5. In Many Cases, Your Opposition Is Not Necessarily Pure Evil- Now, admittedly there are a fair number of battle shonen that don't follow this trope, but I've seen far too many cases of it happening to not associate it with the genre. This doesn't mean that the opposition between good guys and bad guys is gray and that there is no clear right or wrong, but rather that we see that, even the bad guys have reasons and motivations for doing what they want to do. I haven't seen too many other types of comics explore this. I mean, yes, I've seen it in other non-shonen manga like Monster and Vagabond, among other things, but what I mean is that I see it so often in shonen that I can't help but associate it with the genre in some respect. Even terrible manga like the later arcs of Naruto, to its very little credit, at least have some aspect of the villains not just doing bad things for shits and giggles. Of course, their reasons and motivations are the product of terrible writing, so it doesn't really work there, but in series like Yu Yu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, and various other manga where you have excellent writing backing this concept, you have some of the most truly engaging conflicts that I have ever seen in the medium of comic books. In sports manga, it makes it clear that the opposing team isn't just some group of one-dimensional ass-holes. As hard as the main characters worked, the other team worked just as hard to get to where they are. In plot-oriented battle shonen, it often leads to an interesting clash of ideals, and has lead to many of the best story arcs of all time withing the medium, like Magnostadt (the absolutely best arc of Magi), the York New City and Chimera Ant arcs, the Revenge arc of Rurouni Kenshin, and arguably the best of its kind, Yu Yu Hakusho's Chapter Black.

So, yeah, I have my problems with many tropes in the genre that I just can't stand, but let this post suffice as my testament to how excellent the genre can be when it follows key characteristics that are actually inherently good and in many cases, surprisingly enough, even seem to be done well to some extent in battle shonen manga that are usually more poorly written. Anyways, that's just my opinion. None of these things are exclusive to the genre, mind you. They just happen to be binding themes that I notice in way too many of them for it to deemed as anything other a trope of the genre. And I love all of them.

Nice list! I agree with all of them.

My personal favorite one is that no matter what craziness goes on in the story it is ultimately about the eventual triumph of good over evil. I do think that is something kids should be shown. Of course in real life good doesn't always win, and in stories it doesn't seem to be winning most of the time, but eventually and when it counts, good does come out on top. Yu Yu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, Death Note, Dragon Ball, Hunter X Hunter (despite countless deaths and setbacks), and from what I've seen of Magi all contain those elements.

I would be lying if I didn't say a big part of the appeal of battle shonen to me is a knock down slug-out between good and evil where good eventually prevails. Because it is ultimately what I do enjoy seeing.

I hear some of western comic books' best work involves antagonists being not pure evil, such as in classic x-men. my favorite comic book villains tend to be insane (the joker, two-face) or overly obsessive (lex luthor, hush) with a few exceptions (lincoln redcrow, deathstroke, drakon) so i can't really add much there. i need some recommendations, lol

sometimes i wonder how the hell good can win in some anime stories but yes i know what will eventually happen. sometimes it's done right, sometimes it's done wrong.

Desensitized: Yes, I love the rewarding feeling that you get in a good battle shonen manga when all of the efforts and struggles of a character finally gets them the results that they deserve. It really makes it feel like the struggle was truly worth it, and also that you have to be willing to go all out to achieve what you really want.

GSF: To be clear, I'm not saying that Western comic books don't have great sympathetic or three-dimensional villains. On the contrary, I know that they do. I'm just stating that this particular thing is actually so common in shonen that it's a trope of the genre, and one that I actually happen to find endearing.

i know, sorry for the confusion. i was trying to also say battle shonen tends to excel at that and so, it seems to do it more often than comics, from what i have seen. most comics i have read seem to be along the lines of good vs evil.

I also like good vs. evil, myself, and some of my all-time favorite villains are just pure evil, but still have a really engaging and entertaining personality. I may generally prefer more nuanced and morally ambiguous villains, but I can't deny enjoying a classic battle of the best of humanity facing off against the worst of it.

amen. i was just thinking the same. my top 10 has a few guys that are almost purely evil (skinner sweet) or insane (the joker, again) but are very charismatic. pretty much likable in a dysfunctional kind of way but you wouldn't actually want to be around them. lol

Bit late to comment, but great list! Those are things I appreciate in the genre when done well too.

I prefer villains who have more defined motivations and goals for doing what they are doing than just purely evil ones. Even if it's something really simple, I've always found those kind of villains more interesting. One of the reasons I've always enjoyed the first Majin Buu as a villain was the idea that he did all the things he did only because he didn't know it was wrong to do those things, because he was never told by anyone that it was before. And when Mr. Satan befriends him, and becomes someone he respects and trusts, and tells him that what he was doing is bad, he decides to stop out of respect for his friendship with him. I loved the concept of that as a kid, and it's a big part why I have a soft spot for that character even now.

I also like it when good people are rewarded from their efforts and the bad get punished for their misdeeds. The example of this that immediately comes to mind to me might just be the ending of Stone Ocean. By all accounts, the main villain has basically won. But as a consequence of something he did earlier, the only hero left to stop him receives a means to do so, and while he isn't able to undo what the main villain has done he is able to move things into a different direction that ultimately rewards that hero and punishes the villain. The satisfaction from how it plays out is a big part of why it's my favorite ending to any part in JoJo's and a manga in general.

Thanks, CX.

In general, I find that battle shonen manga often excel at those rewarding moments of triumph for the hero, more so than even other genres. Goku defeating King Piccolo, Joe pulling out that triple-cross-counter against Wolf, Shouhoku getting the last-second victory against the undefeated Sannoh; those are all such classic, iconic monents that still leave an impact on me to this day.

So, while we've briefly touched upon it before, what are everyone's thoughts on villains, specifically in the context of the shonen genre? What qualities separate the good ones from the bad ones?

For instance, we all know that villains like Sensui, Enishi, and Meruem are classics for not being one-dimensionally evil and actually being nuanced characters in their own right. Yet on the opposite end of the spectrum, we have comically awful villains like Sasuke or Black Zetsu (among many, many others) that try to have more depth to their characters, but fail miserably at it through bad writing. But, what exactly makes it bad? Why does one example work over the other. I find that to be an interesting discussion point.

Clearly it's not just depth, because on the contrary, we also love remarkably simple yet still endearing villains like Freeza, Dio Brando, and Sir Crocodile, among others. But for all of those kinds, we have tripe like Hody Jones or Akashi. Why exactly is that, and again, what makes the difference there?

For the sake of recognition, I used more popular WSJ villains as examples, but please feel free to bring up other shonen villains as discussion points. And this is just meant to be interesting and fun. Let's not get too heated up and make this super critical and analytical. It's more about giving reasons for why we consider various archetypes of the genre to either be good or bad.

The worst villains are the ones that have no motivation. Not for being evil (there are many reasons someone can be evil, and they don't all need exploring) but for not having reasons for doing the things they're doing.

I'd actually a villain have no reason given for why they're evil than have a poorly written and hamfisted reason inserted in (His mother didn't buy him that toy train when he was a kid! Genocide time). I guess that's why I'm not big on flashback arcs. Anyway, I'm more interested into why they are engaging in the current plot and how that wraps into who the hero is and who the villain is.

Let the actions of the character speak, not their background story.

The latest Weekly Manga Recap review might be of interest to some people here. (http://blip.tv/hilarios-productions/weekly-manga-recap-mx0-7170982)

I enjoyed the series much more than they did, but I can't really disagree with a lot of the points they made about the flaws in the premise and structure of it.

I didn't know where else to post this, but: http://www.toonzone.net/forums/anime-forum/433101-last-naruto-movie-terrible-movie-spoilers.html#.VTaqBRmsHqA

This thread just made my fucking day. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. :lol:

I'm not even sure what's funniest about it. The fact that the topic creator is putting so much emphasis on shipping characters that were terribly written and barely had any chemistry to be go with, the fact that he's still right about all of his criticisms despite it being incredibly ridiculous to pay the series this much mind in the first place, or seeing JTP trying his damn hardest to defend literally anything Naruto related as if it were some misunderstood artful masterpiece. Either way, it had me laughing in tears. :D

I'm not a fan of shit-talking other forums or their posters on here anymore... but that thread is gold. Pure gold. I want it printed out and framed on my wall. Absolutely beautiful.

QuoteThis is definitely the best Weekly Shounen JUMP film I've seen. If only there had been room for more!

:whuh:

To be fair, it's not like the bar is all that high.

Pretty much every SJ movie blows it out of the water.

I should be clear that I don't really have any ill intent against TZ or even JTP. I just find his insistence on claiming that Naruto is one of the best manga and anime ever to be genuinely hilarious. Mind you, this is a series that even many hardcore fans turned their back on as it progressed and got incredibly contrived in its writing to being so bad that it was actually funny. Podcasts like WMR as well as various anime bloggers had a blast making fun of every bad thing about the manga in the final few years of its run. We're talking about Star Wars-prequels levels of horrendous, here, except much more fun to joke about.

So, seeing someone genuinely try their best to pretend like it's an amazing series is just too much for me to take seriously. That, and the other poster ripping the series to shreds was so funny (to me), that it actually made me feel happier. That's the reason why I brought it up. :D

Oh yeah, there was nothing wrong with your post at all. Just want to remind people not to take it too far in the future. ;)

Quotebut would've totally okay with a Sasuke/Naruto ending

*closes tab, cleans web history thoroughly*

Remember that list that I did for superhero cartoons before? I figured that I'd do the same thing for battle shonen series from Weekly Shonen Jump. I'm only sticking to WSJ series for now, though, and only battle or match-oriented manga (so no Death Note or Level E), otherwise I'd be stuck here listing way too much stuff, easily over 50 series, if not more, which I don't currently have the time for. Also, while mostly subjective, I'll try to be more fair and considerate about series that I don't care as much for.

Ecxellent:
1. Rurouni Kenshin
2. Dragon Ball
3. Slam Dunk

Great:
4. Hunter X Hunter
5. One Piece (pre-time skip)
6. Hikaru no Go
7. Yu Yu Hakusho

Very Good:
8. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (so far)
9. Saint Seiya

Generally Good:
10. Psyren
11. World Trigger
12. Haikyuu

OK, But Not My Thing:
13. One Piece (post-time skip)
14. My Hero Academy
15. Fist of the North Star
16. Buso Renkin
17. Embalming
18. Kuroko no Basket
19. Black Cat
20. Rurouni Kenshin: Restoration
21. Yu-Gi-Oh
22. Naruto (pre-time skip)

Bad:
23. D. Gray-Man
24. Beelzebub
25. Medaka Box

Please Kill Me, Now:
26. Naruto (post-time skip)
27. Bleach

Aren't Ashita no Joe and Hajime no Ippo shonen?

That's a pretty good list. I can't think of any shonen off the top of my head that would rank up there.

(Though if we're talking anime, YYH would easily go over HXH)

You've read Fist Of The Northstar? What's RK: Restoration again?

Oh, I'd put Flame of Recca (manga) in the generally good tier, too. It's pretty good at what it does.

GSF: I actually haven't finished every manga that I listed. I have read at least a few volumes of each, though. More than enough to formulate a solid opinion on them. I read the first 5 volumes of FOTNS a few years ago, and just couldn't get into it. Perhaps I'll revisit it some day. I haven't read that much of Saint Seiya, either, but I really dug what I did read for its old-school charm.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on May 13, 2015, 09:08:30 PMAren't Ashita no Joe and Hajime no Ippo shonen?

I mentioned that I was only listing WSJ series.

Both AnJ and HnI were serialized in different magazine anthologies.

If I included every battle shonen that I've read, I'd have to factor in stuff like Kenichi and Flame of Recca, among other manga.

I didn't catch that.  :sweat:

But a master list would be pretty cool for those interested in reading more.

When I have more time on my hands, I'll do an expanded list.

Great list and idea! Timely too, considering something I've been thinking about doing recently.

I'd rank the battle shonen and sports manga from Weekly Shonen Jump that I've read a significant portion of as follows:

Excellent:

1. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
2. Rurouni Kenshin
3. Dragon Ball

Great:

4. One Piece (pre-timeskip)
5. Slam Dunk

Very Good:

6. Food Wars! Shokugeki no Soma
7. Hunter X Hunter
8. Gintama
9. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo
10. Assassination Classroom
11. Cross Manage
12. Gakkyu Hotei: School Judgement
13. World Trigger
14. Toriko
15. Yu Yu Hakusho

Generally Good:

16. Hikaru no Go
17. Yu-Gi-Oh! (Millennium World Arc)
18. Black Cat
19. Hinomaru Zumo
20. Eyeshield 21
21. Shaman King
22. My Hero Academia
23. Psyren
24. Yu-Gi-Oh! (Shadow Games Arc)
25. Black Clover (so far)
26. MX0

OK, But Not My Thing:

27. One Piece (post-timeskip)
28. Shinsetsu Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo
29. Yu-Gi-Oh! (Duelist arc)
30. Naruto (pre-timeskip)
31. Buso Renkin
32. Kuroko no Basket (pre-Akashi)
33. Haikyuu
34. Stealth Symphony
35. Rurouni Kenshin: Restoration

Guilty Pleasures:

36. The Prince of Tennis
37. Medaka Box

Bad:

38. Hi-fi Cluster
39. Kuroko no Basket (post-Akashi)

Please Kill Me, Now:

40. Naruto (post-timeskip)
41. D. Gray Man
42. Bleach

Haven't Read Enough Of Yet to Really Judge:

?1. Kagamigami
?2. Fist of the North Star
?3. Ultra Battle Satellite
?4. Claymore
?5. Cyborg Roggy

I never made a list of my favorite Shonen Jump manga in general before, did I? My Top 10 Series I've read from the imprint overall would be:

1. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
2. Barefoot Gen
3. Rurouni Kenshin
4. Dragon Ball
5. One Piece
6. Dr. Slump
7. Slam Dunk
8. Food Wars! Shokugeki no Soma
9. Bakuman
10. Death Note

You've read more Black Clover than Kagamigami? Or do you just mean that BC has a clear pattern you think it's going in and KG hasn't really yet?

Anyway, good list. Claymore is pretty good but it loses a lot of points for being so slow post-timeskip. The main character wasn't (or still hasn't for all I know) seen for well over half a decade in the manga. My interest just totally petered out because of it.

Viz has been serializing Black Clover in Jump so I've been able to keep up with it. No one's been scanning Kagamigami, so I haven't been able to read past what Viz released yet. So at this point, I've read 12 chapters of Black Clover compared to just 3 of Kagamigami.

I read the first volume's worth of chapters of Claymore when Jump did a Jump Back for it a while back. I wasn't impressed by I read, and I've heard the criticisms about how it ended up as it went on, so it's not much of a priority for me to read at the moment, though I still plan to go through the series one day.

It gets pretty intense and violent (gore, even) but it always manages to maintain its focus. The problem is the pacing dies with the timeskip and the story stalled for years. It's a shame, really.

I'm surprised about KG considering how popular Psyren was, especially in the scanslator circles, but that would easily change if Jump would pick it up for NA. Just saying.  :humhumhum:

Great list!

You also named a few that I completely forgot about, like Eyeshield 21 and MX0, though I'd probably also rank those among generally good like you did.

I read the first 3 volumes of Claymore a few years back. I actually liked it quite a bit, myself, but my tastes have also changed considerably since then, so I'll have to revisit it someday and try to read further in it to see if it still appeals to me.

Congrats on 4000 posts!

Thanks!

You're welcome! I'm surprised you don't have more posts than me by now. :D

I don't recall the first volume of Claymore being too great, but when it hits a certain flashback to Claire's past, it gets more interesting and fun to read. But I haven't caught up in years since the post-timeskip material is indeed slow.

Because of the Let's Watch YYH thread entering Chapter Black, I've been thinking a bit about what it does so well and contrasting its qualities with other manga and anime I like.

The best place to start would be the works of Nobuyuki Anzai as a good catch-all for what I'm trying to get across.

Anzai (like Makoto Raiku) was an assistant to Kazuhiro Fujita on Ushio & Tora where he learned a lot about storytelling. Ushio & Tora is an adventure story where the action comes from confrontations in the heroes' journey and where the main characters must use the skills they have and improve their own tactics to win. There are no defined or proper power levels in Ushio & Tora, you're either more efficient with what you have or you lose. There were standalone slice of life chapters, but for the purpose of this thread, I'm referring to the main story.

Near the end of Ushio & Tora, in 1995, Anzai struck out on his own with Flame of Recca which had obvious influences not only from Ushio & Tora, but from Yu Yu Hakusho (which bypassed the "power-up" issue entirely with Chapter Black), leading to what is still his most enduring work two decades later.

Flame of Recca progresses like Ushio & Tora. There is a story, the characters are on an adventure, and the focus is more on competence than outright strength. This was mixed with qualities from Yu Yu Hakusho's Spirit Detective and Chapter Black arcs which are more about mind games and the Dark Tournament where there are some abilities that are just plain overwhelming to beat.

Flame of Recca ran for six years, ending before the shonen tide lost a lot of the power the earlier works in the '90s had, telling a complete and satisfying story that is still a delight to read nowadays for wearing its influences on its sleeve while adding enough character of its own to stand out from the pack.

Now, jump to 2003.

Anzai is starting his next manga, M.A.R. (Marchen Awakens Romance) which promises to be fairly different from Flame of Recca. Now, this is a good thing. He doesn't want to repeat himself, and we don't need a clone of FoR. The early chapters present promise, too. His art style has changed a bit, making everything softer and focusing on younger characters and a more fantastical setting. MAR starts off well.

And this is when it falls apart.

My biggest issue with MAR is that it promises an adventure. Like the Neverending Story or even something like Labyrinth, MAR starts with a main character in a dreary life who seeks fantasy awakening to him just out of reach. He is transported to a fantastical land where everything is different, as well as himself, giving him a chance to grow and change as he tries to save the world. There's nothing wrong with any of that, in fact, it is a great set up with a lot of potential. A lot of great stories have started there and have the potential to go to great places.

The problem is that it turns into a battle manga. And not a battle manga like Ushio & Tora, Yu Yu Hakusho, or Flame of Recca, in which its about skills learned and a growing competence to achieve your goals, which would be PERFECT for such a setting. No, it devolves into a formula of training arcs, tournaments, and power levels.

So you're not going on an adventure. You're not seeing new sights. You're not getting engrossed in this grand world. No, you're sitting around watching characters do the same thing over and over.

It's a complete waste of the concept and setting.

But it's not any different than other shonen of the time period. In fact, it's not any different from Hitman Reborn, if you want to get petty. Anzai changed his style of writing for MAR and it not only betrayed his own series concept, but hurt his own storytelling in the process. By the end of MAR, little really happens. There wasn't really any adventure, and the only change is that the characters are physically stronger, Nanashi finds his place (which hurts twice as bad because Nanashi is only completing his character arc from Flame of Recca, emphasizing how much weaker the other characters in MAR are), and that's it. This is a real disappointment from a mangaka that should know better because he's done better.

This is the opposite of the style of adventure that I was talking about earlier, and what much of the shonen of the era were focusing on. Naruto (despite early promise), Bleach, Prince of Tennis, Hitman Reborn, Bleach, Beezlebub, and many other series since forgotten, all followed this same formula into a rut. Shonen is all but dismissed these days because they're all expected to be like those series with their similar formulas. As a result, nothing much of consequence happens much of the time in the stories or in a worst case scenario nothing really happens at all.

As a consequence, I'm not sure what Anzai is up to these days. He created a third series I have never heard anything about that ended a few years ago. I have no idea how it went despite running the typical 3 years, but I would hope he learned where he went wrong with MAR and polished his skills again. I still think he can do better.

Nowadays, there's a return of the adventure style of Ushio & Tora and Yu Yu Hakusho with series like Food Wars!, World Trigger, and My Hero Academia, where it is about skill and competence winning the day over mindless strength and a there's been a noticeable drop off in the battle style of simply making everyone stronger and having the progression basically stop there. The adventure hadn't really been around in a long time since around Flame of Recca's end, but are now taking over as the dominant style. I think only Black Clover remains of the battle style from the last decade, and as been mentioned in the manga discussion thread, its failings are obvious to most readers, even those who are fans of it.

I guess what I'm saying is there are two styles of Battle manga. There are adventure series (popularized by early to mid Dragon Ball, Ushio & Tora, and Yu Yu Hakusho) and there are battle series (popularized by later Dragon Ball, Naruto, and Bleach), which is why there are so many different fans looking for different styles and have different interests. I think this split is why there are divides these days when discussing shonen with certain people.

Of course this doesn't mean adventure stories can't have power levels and battle stories can't have plots, it's just when they do, it tends to take a back seat to other concerns.

Also, yes, I gave Dragon Ball the credit for starting both of these. Since it basically created modern shonen as it is now, it only stands to reason that there would be aspects some writers would take with them from each of Toriyama's styles in the long-running series.

As for me, yes, of course I prefer the adventure style. Most of my favorite shonen and series in general have this sort of focus, so it only stands to reason that I like it more. I'm more than happy that it has been making a comeback in recent years and hope it sticks around this time.

How about you guys? What do you think about all this?

Oh whoa, adventure is really making a comeback? I had no clue. I of course love the genre.

Quote from: gunswordfist on October 27, 2015, 03:59:45 PM
Oh whoa, adventure is really making a comeback? I had no clue. I of course love the genre.

Just looking at Jump now, most of the action series are more adventure oriented, more about telling stories about protagonists that are growing into their own, discovering new things, and learning how to be better people. Not chapter after chapter of endless battles for no real reason. The only real series like that are Bleach and (so far) Black Clover.

Shonen Sunday used to be all about adventure, but most of their series nowadays are either obscure or getting up there in age. If they can get back on track they can easily compete with Jump again.

I'd add something, but I pretty much agree with most of what you said.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 27, 2015, 06:17:49 PM
I'd add something, but I pretty much agree with most of what you said.

I mean, I'm not saying it's a foolproof theory, but I couldn't figure out why what were being considered "Battle Manga" were so different from each other in styles.

I saw some comments dismissing Ushio & Tora as more generic shonen, which just puzzled me. Mostly because I couldn't name any shonen in the last decade that were anything like it in execution. But they saw "Supernatural Battle Manga" in the description and instantly came to the conclusion that it was training arcs, tournaments, dopey overeating main character with a 2edgy4u rival, power-ups, and a lack of story. Even though it doesn't have any of those things in it!

So I wondered, if so many shonen anime and manga have those problems, what about the ones that don't? But at some point the ones that weren't in the battle style sort of disappeared. I honestly can't think of any after Flame of Recca ended and before Magi and the recent Jump crop started that weren't written by Ohba and Obata. They sort of vanished around the time "shonen" became a dirty word and look to be making a comeback.

I dunno, food for thought. I think it's about time for it to stop being an insult to call something shonen.

I was always bothered by how MAR became literally one long tournament arc. They didn't even do any variations on the matches to make  each of them unique . The matches are literally just the same thing each round right up until the end, and because there was no tension because Ginta had to fight in every round and obviously couldn't lose because one loss meant the entire team would be kicked out, very few of the fight felt like they actually mattered, much less added to any real character or story development, most of which instead happened outside of the matches.

I definitely think that more series now are paying attention to characters and are willing to take more risks and mix up their stories. I don't know if pure adventure has truly made a comeback, because a lot of series I've read like Toriko and The Seven Deadly Sins started off more as adventure series but then eventually introduced power levels and became more battle focused and such, but I do think a lot of series just have much smarter and more clever writing than the more generic stuff that gave the battle genre such a bad name last decade.

Though, there has also been a rise in series that think being super violent and dark are good substitutes for genuinely well-written stories, characters, and themes. Case in point, the Deadman Wonderland mangaka's new series, Smokin' Parade. I read the first two chapters of that shit earlier this week, and good lord, I couldn't believe how awful it is. Horribly unlikable characters, a messily written story, overly-violent and tastelessly gory, all of it trying to mask the generic tropes and archetypes at it's core and failing miserably at it. Stuff like that and Akame ga Kill are bringing the battle genre down as much as stuff like MHA and World Trigger are bringing it up.

There are still manga with the power level thing, true, but those will probably always be around. Dragon Ball made it popular for a reason. I just don't see it as often these days, which is a relief to someone like me who prefers more adventure in stories.

As long as manga like World Trigger and My Hero Academia are still being made, I don't really mind if people want more of the simpler battle style manga.

Quote from: Cartoon X on October 30, 2015, 08:46:46 PMThough, there has also been a rise in series that think being super violent and dark are good substitutes for genuinely well-written stories, characters, and themes. Case in point, the Deadman Wonderland mangaka's new series, Smokin' Parade. I read the first two chapters of that shit earlier this week, and good lord, I couldn't believe how awful it is. Horribly unlikable characters, a messily written story, overly-violent and tastelessly gory, all of it trying to mask the generic tropes and archetypes at it's core and failing miserably at it. Stuff like that and Akame ga Kill are bringing the battle genre down as much as stuff like MHA and World Trigger are bringing it up.

Yeah, there are just some mangaka that are just total misses to me. As much as I might not like the whole boring tourny/training/level up formula in a lot of shonen, I dislike the grimdark crap far more.

Just because you make everyone moody, show lots of blood and gore, and randomly kill "important" characters (but never the main character, because these types of manga have the WORST usage of plot armor in any kind of story) to show how "anything can happen!" does not rise you above the common shonen trope. I fact, it makes you worse. I have never read or seen a GOOD grimdark shonen and I probably never will. They just have some of the worst issues in any genre.

The dialogue is still cliche (only darker!), the story is still unoriginal (but darker!), and the characters are still unlikable (but darker!) but are far less enjoyable than something like Black Clover because Black Clover for all its faults is only trying to be fun. It's not pretending to be what it's not and hiding behind trappings to hide that it's really no more original than Hitman Reborn when all is said and done and not some deep epic tale of whatever pretentious crap the main character moodily monologues about in between whine-fests.

I really don't like that stuff.

It's funny how so many shonen which took inspiration from DB by putting an over-emphasis on power-levels pretty much completely missed the point of them in the first place.

Power-levels always have been and always will be BS. Toriyama himself stated that characters won or lost fights depending on which outcome suited the story that he wanted to tell. If you pay attention, you'll notice that the idea of scouters and using power-levels to gauge an opponent's ability always became a weakness of the person using it, in the end. On several occasions, reading one of the heoroes' power levels only caused a villain to underestimate them and lose in the process, either because the hero was hiding his true strength, or because he used a clever strategy to overtake his opponent.

Hell, we even have a recent example of raw power being meaningless in certain situations. In DBZRF, written by Toriyama himself, Freeza is at first more powerful than Goku, but Goku overtakes him by dragging out the battle and forcing Freeza to burn most of his energy on useless attacks that Goku can just block or dodge. Then when Goku overtakes Freeza, the tables are turned again by having Freeza lure Goku into a trap and having one of his minions snipe him when his guard's down. In both instances, power levels didn't amount to jack shit.

And how about Gohan defeating Cell? The victory was ultimately decided by the help of his friends and Vegeta, since Gohan was crippled and severely weakened during their beam struggle.

And Goku vs. Kid Buu? The Universe would've been doomed without the help of Mr. Satan and all the people of Earth, who were individually weak, but combined were able to give Goku enough spirit energy to vanquish Buu once and for all. You can't exactly say that Goku won because of a higher power-level.

It's just bizarre how many fans there are of Dragon Ball who don't get the message that power alone doesn't ensure victory, and the writers who claim to be inspired by DB but focus purely on power-struggles in their battles must not have been paying attention to the above facts. There's a reason that scouters only have prevalence in two arcs in the entire series, and are no longer used by the time that the androids show up.

The power level thing in DB was kind of thrown out when Vegeta kept beating people who were supposed to be just plain better than him over and over again even though everyone kept using the scouters. But that doesn't stop the countless manga variations of "He's just on another level!" and it always means that unless you are Super Important Character A, you can't even scratch the overpowered character.

It's just so boring to see this over and over again, because there is no interesting way to beat characters like that except training after losing to the character and then beating the character with newly acquired strength. It's just old to me.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on October 30, 2015, 09:03:35 PM
Yeah, there are just some mangaka that are just total misses to me. As much as I might not like the whole boring tourny/training/level up formula in a lot of shonen, I dislike the grimdark crap far more.

Just because you make everyone moody, show lots of blood and gore, and randomly kill "important" characters (but never the main character, because these types of manga have the WORST usage of plot armor in any kind of story) to show how "anything can happen!" does not rise you above the common shonen trope. I fact, it makes you worse. I have never read or seen a GOOD grimdark shonen and I probably never will. They just have some of the worst issues in any genre.

The dialogue is still cliche (only darker!), the story is still unoriginal (but darker!), and the characters are still unlikable (but darker!) but are far less enjoyable than something like Black Clover because Black Clover for all its faults is only trying to be fun. It's not pretending to be what it's not and hiding behind trappings to hide that it's really no more original than Hitman Reborn when all is said and done and not some deep epic tale of whatever pretentious crap the main character moodily monologues about in between whine-fests.

I really don't like that stuff.

I find that grimdark manga and comics, heck, just grimdark stuff in general, rarely tend to be good because they often seem to think their messages are smarter than they really are, and that their violent or shocking content equates them to being more mature and adult. Rather, their approach and outlook is often just immature and one-note, and the lack of levity and fun to balance them out just makes them less engaging and enjoyable to experience. I'll always appreciate a series that knows how to balance it's serious moments with light-hearted ones more than one that just attempts to be dark and grim and nothing else.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on October 30, 2015, 09:27:56 PM
It's funny how so many shonen which took inspiration from DB by putting an over-emphasis on power-levels pretty much completely missed the point of them in the first place.

Power-levels always have been and always will be BS. Toroyama himself stated that characters won or lost fights depending on which outcome suited the story that he wanted to tell. If you pay attention, you'll notice that the idea of scouters and using power-levels to gauge an opponent's ability always became a weakness of the person using it, in the end. On several occasions, reading one of the heoroes' power levels only caused a villain to underestimate them and lose in the process, either because the hero was hiding his true strength, or because he used a clever strategy to overtake his opponent.

Hell, we even have a recent example of raw power being meaningless in certain situations. In DBZRF, written by Toriyama himself, Freeza is at first more powerful than Goku, but Goku overtakes him by dragging out the battle and forcing Freeza to burn most of his energy on useless attacks that Goku can just block or dodge. Then when Goku overtakes Freeza, the tables are turned again by having Freeza lure Goku into a trap and having one of his minions snipe him when his guard's down. In both instances, power levels didn't amount to jack shit.

And how about Gohan defeating Cell? The victory was ultimately decided by the help of his friends and Vegeta, since Gohan was crippled and severely weakened during their beam struggle.

And Goku vs. Kid Buu? The Universe would've been doomed without the help of Mr. Satan and all the people of Earth, who were individually weak, but combined were able to give Goku enough spirit energy to vanquish Buu once and for all. You can't exactly say that Goku won because of a higher power-level.

It's just bizarre how many fans there are of Dragon Ball who don't get the message that power alone doesn't ensure victory, and the writers who claim to be inspired by DB but focus purely on power-struggles in their battles must not have been paying attention to the above facts. There's a reason that scouters only have prevalence in two arcs in the entire series, and are no longer used by the time that the androids show up.

This is why I'm always bothered when people like, say, the WMR guys (especially RolloT), seem to think power levels defined all the fights in Dragon Ball. Literally, from the very first fight after their introduction in the battle with Raditz, scouters were shown to be useless in measuring the heroes' capabilities. Power levels were only ever useful in assessing the relative strength of the antagonists, since they couldn't control their power levels early on, and that gets thrown out the window as early as when Zarbon reveals to Vegeta that he can transform. DB might've introduced the concept of power levels, but it was never as power hierarchy focused as it's derivatives have been over the years.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on October 30, 2015, 09:34:12 PMThe power level thing in DB was kind of thrown out when Vegeta kept beating people who were supposed to be just plain better than him over and over again even though everyone kept using the scouters. But that doesn't stop the countless manga variations of "He's just on another level!" and it always means that unless you are Super Important Character A, you can't even scratch the overpowered character.

It's just so boring to see this over and over again, because there is no interesting way to beat characters like that except training after losing to the character and then beating the character with newly acquired strength. It's just old to me.

That's why Togashi is one of my favorite shonen mangaka. Raw power usually tends to mean very little on its own in both YYH and HXH. Characters win more often based on experience and strategy, rather than by some super punch or energy blast. The same could be said of JoJo's. It's not WHAT your power is that decides a battle, but rather HOW good a character is at using that specific type of power.

The only times in YYH that power mattered was Team Toguro. And Togashi instantly changed gears when the first opponent our heroes fought after a monstrous hulking mass of muscle is a geeky honors student with no physical strength at all. And he could have just as easily killed Team Urameshi as Toguro could have.

I didn't say Three Kings because despite the whole training and tournament aspect of the arc, that wasn't the point of it. Though Togashi missed it in the manga, the anime showed that Yusuke was destined for more than fighting and ruling the world with strength, and that's why it ended with him losing and finally realizing where his home was and staying there with his family and friends. It was something he'd been trying to accept since he first died in chapter one but had troubles accepting it throughout the series. The arc was basically an epilogue to the main story capping of Yusuke, Kurama, and Hiei's character development. Everything else going on was just in the background.

Also, in Dragon Ball, remember that Krillin, of all characters, could have killed someone like Nappa or Frieza with his attack and they were much stronger than him at the time. And he almost did it, too.

CX: I agree. That criticism of DB always bugs me. I feel that sometimes when a series becomes so big and influences tons of cheap immitators, the faults of those latter series running with annoying tropes ends up getting associated with the more popular series, even if it wasn't really guilty of mishandling such tropes in the first place.

This is no different from how NGE has its critics for the characters being "emo" and ultimately unlikable and one-dimensional....but that's not really true, and I saw how unwarranted most criticisms of that series were when I finally watched it for myself. It was the poor immitators that got it wrong, but the criticisms got stuck to the bigger target, regardless.

It's also the same reason that a game series like Halo gets bashed as a mindless run-and-gun affair that spawned a plethora of boring, uninspired FPS clones. The part about crappy generic FPS games becoming a popular trend may he true, but the Halo games that inspired it are actually very nuanced in their mechanics and design, and became so popular in the first place because the games were good.

Sometimes people look at the bigger picture and completely miss the mark on what a big propertly was really like to begin with.

You know, I kind of wanted to write a post about My Hero Academia. This is mostly because I've seen in constantly dismissed as more shonen crap or whatever and how it will never compare to the latest grimdark seinen or the marvelous masterpiece that is Naruto. But it's also because I think it is a series that deserves its growing popularity. The anime should only cement it further when it comes out.

First, there's the setting. This is a world where anybody, literally anybody, can be a hero except a very tiny minority of people. Our main character is one of those without powers. Not only can he physically not become a hero, but he's a bit of a coward, and he only wants to be a hero because he thinks heroes are the coolest. Typical comic book geek, really. But Kohei Horikoshi makes one of the best choices in regards to a main character in a shonen that I haven't seen since, well, I can't even remember.

Izuku Midoriya is a wannabe with no great goal or noble dream except to, really, be cool like his hero All Might. But the first chapter makes a very stark difference between Midoriya and most any shonen protagonist in that he changes his goal in said first chapter. He saved a friend of his for the single reason that he knew that his friend was suffering and dying and he had to save him. No powers, no plan, no backup. He risks his life to do the right thing because that's what he had to do. This is the number one quality of being a hero, though it is taken for granted in MHA's world of hero careerism and the fact that everybody has a power ("quirk") of some kind. By chapter's end, he accepts the fact that he cannot be a hero because he will never have the ability to. It's the final confrontation with All Might that sold the series to me back when it started. All Might decides that he will give a piece of his own power (this has further implications we learn later) to Midoriya in order to make him the hero he deserves to be. This both shows All Might is a hero worth looking up to and that Midoriya is a protagonist that deserves being one.

This reward of his selfless sacrifice is what kicks off the series. Not a declaration to be the greatest X, not a flashy cool shonen battle scene, not any real hook at all except the main character getting a chance to be what he'd always wanted to be. And with that chapter, Midoriya's journey to being a real hero like All Might began.

Another interesting touch is how Horikoshi ties it in to the whole school setting that shonen appears to be stuck in these days. Simply by making it a school that trains heroes, Horikoshi is able to break from that mold while still having it at the same time. Nobody really gets stronger in MHA-- they get more proficient at what they already have. The classes teach them to be better heroes and to learn to use their powers better. It suits the main story and theme instead of being there because it has to be. For his first series to use a school as a setting, he does it surprisingly well.

Like I just mentioned, this isn't a manga about power levels. Some powers are better than others, but it's not a ticket to victory. Every fight and confrontation in MHA is won through brains and brawn and never just one or the other. They're always exciting to watch.

The characters, as well, are all very interesting and well worth following. Midoriya looks like he'll be the typical weakling cowardly shonen protagonist, but flips the script as soon as he is given the proper tools to succeed. As he grows, his initial cowardice grows out of him until

Spoiler

the most recent chapter with one of the most satisfying fights in the series where he shows no fear

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and he understands his quirk better. Bakugo is initially one of those loud obnoxious characters who won't grow at all, unless you pay attention to the subtleties in his past and behavior. Yes, an angry explosive character gets better when you watch for subtle changes. Weird. Uraraka initially just wants to be a hero to help her family pay the bills until she sees heroes like All Might and even Midoriya in action which inspires to reach higher that before-- and she does. Then there's Todoroki who could easily be the grimdark joyless Sasuke of the series becomes a hero who catches your attention every time he shows up. And lastly, All Might, who could be little more than a joke character, comes into his own as he faces the limits of his own extraordinary power and how he teaches Midoriya and the students how to be better heroes. All Might is a true hero through and through, and he is one of the best mentor characters in recent memory. That doesn't even go into the supporting cast.

I guess the biggest negative I can say so far is that it's still a relatively new series and could very easily go off the rails like Naruto or Bleach did. It probably won't, since it doesn't have a power creep crutch to lean on, but we've only just barely managed to see the main storyline ahead of us. Up until this point its been a lot of character development and set up, but it has all been very rewarding to read. Only time will tell if Horikoshi can keep it up.

My defense of My Hero Academia is that it might be a shonen manga, but it absolutely deserves the popularity it is building up (It is already selling remarkably well here in NA) and is not just another Naruto. Not in execution or in quality, and both are very good things. If you want my honest opinion, Horikoshi is not only a better writer, artist, character designer, and storyteller, than Kishimoto, but he's also far better at pacing. And yes, way ahead of Kubo as well. He's also most likely going to have the superior anime adaption for his series on top of it. The most controversial thing I can say is that MHA is the first new shonen in a long time I can say I'm a fan of without embarrassment in some way (World Trigger would be another, but I started reading that later, even if it came out first) or having to make excuses for it.

Then there's the art.

Spoiler

(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F41.media.tumblr.com%2Fc7199f051fdb32e4f095886054e5c543%2Ftumblr_nksnsihkv51u6s7veo1_1280.jpg&hash=270c019d6d51cdc98095fd76fdc00c71cd1d4c2c)
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(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi4.mangapanda.com%2Fboku-no-hero-academia%2F9%2Fboku-no-hero-academia-5304407.jpg&hash=5ea9f2b6726189995797b453ab94bad43ada9c30)
(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpm1.narvii.com%2F5843%2Faed1e675d063a1d11073075946241c195e0bf1cc_hq.jpg&hash=aa36f345ee9777e621d28f7aeda9b7fb0ffad89d)
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(https://animationrevelation.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmanga-joy.com%2Fwp-content%2Fmanga%2F15058%2F82%2F17.png&hash=96e9a0c175352bbabe528f9d5406f63788e07326)

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As far as shonen goes, MHA pretty much encapsulates everything I enjoy. Here's hoping it only gets better.

Great post. I pretty much agree with all of it. Initially I was losing interest in the early part of the series because of the Sports Festival arc (which was thankfully kept short), but it really picked up again after that point. I like the first several chapters better for its genuinely good use of comedy, and the latter stuff better for its clever battles and surprisingly resonant story-telling. The villains are also a plus later on. For example, "Hero Killer" Stain is somewhat like a really deranged, psychotic, Sensui-type villain, in that he's got some pretty strong motives for hating how corrupt and impure the world of heroes has become, being treated more like a business and commodity in MHA's modern society, but goes about it in the wrong way by killing off notable leading figures in the world of heroes. Yet, much like Sensui, he acknowledges that he himself is flawed, but would gladly sacrifice himself for what he sees as a greater cause. And as proof of his conviction for his own ideals, he actually saves Midoriya despite having tried to kill his friends, since he judged him to be a "true hero" when he saw that despite opposing him, Midoriya fit his notions of what an ideal hero should strive to be. That makes him an interesting character, rather than a pretentious hypocrite like many other battle Shonen villains try to be when bad writers attempt to add depth to them.

This really is a much better version of Naruto. I know just the mere mention of that series is a turn-off for some, but it takes a similar concept and actually executes it well, IMO. Sure, the typical Shonen tropes are there, but just like any good classic, it really is the execution that matters. The tropes are cliche, but the way the series gives its spin on it feels unique, and above that, it just has so much heart to it.

And on the subject of being a better version of Naruto, Todoroki goes right up there with Kurapika from HXH as how to do a character with a dark or troubled background the right way. Unlike Sasuke, he isn't an anti-social, self-pitying jerk who the author expects us to like and relate to just because he has cool attacks and whatnot. While he seemingly starts out that way, his character arc quickly has him develop into a strong supporting character who becomes the highlight of many parts of the series. The friendship that he forms with Midoriya in which they each have each others' backs feels genuine and makes you actually give a shit about him. I've never understood how anyone could be a fan of Sasuke, but if one of his fans were to ask me to actually point out how to do this character type better, Todoroki would be among the first examples that I would reference them to.

Also, as Desensitized already showcased, the way that the cover-art pays tribute to the style of American superhero comics is really spectacular.

The way he manages to take the best parts of shonen and combine them with the best parts of superhero comics is really stellar, but the most surprising thing here is how he handles battles.

For one, they all feel very organic to the story, never coming out of nowhere to hold up the story. But the other is very telling if you compare it to the mess that Bleach is right now. He doesn't take more than a couple of chapters for battles, yet he still manages to make them exciting and just as important to the story. The most recent fight is one of the best fights I've seen in a manga recently and it was literally two chapters long. And part of the first chapter wasn't focused on his battle. It's a bit hard to imagine these days, but not only does he do it, the readers frequently rank the series near the top despite how it dodges a lot of modern battle manga issues.

I'm trying to think of the last battle manga which has better pacing and the closest thing I can think of is Bakuman. Weird comparison, but it is high praise.

I'm starting to feel like Flame of Recca's two versions are becoming good examples of showing the difference between good and bad shonen.

So, I had an epic post that I was working on for this thread, and I put a lot of time and work and passion into it. I was almost done and then I had to take a break for a second to help out with something. When I opened my computer again everything had been shut down and there was no way for me to restore the post that I had spent a literal hour working on.

God I fucking hate my piece of shit laptop. :srs:

Ah crap. Hope you can get it it back. This is one of my favorite threads on the board.

Darn, sorry dude. I hate it when that happens. Hopefully you can find time to rewrite that post.

I'm glad to see the thread renamed, btw. That "plethora of bad stuff" moniker reflected a pessimism that I feel most of us have moved past now that things have really picked up for the genre again.

Quote from: LumRanmaYasha on June 22, 2016, 10:36:48 PM
Darn, sorry dude. I hate it when that happens. Hopefully you can find time to rewrite that post.

I'm glad to see the thread renamed, btw. That "plethora of bad stuff" moniker reflected a pessimism that I feel most of us have moved past now that things have really picked up for the genre again.

Funny you mention that, because the whole theme of my post was how my outlook on the long-running serialized shonen series has changed greatly over the years, and how I reject that old notion of the genre at large being inherently a bad thing with just a few exceptions. I mean, yes, there are a lot of bad shonen. But there are a lot of bad stuff in EVERY genre in existence. It doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of good stuff as well. I came up with that title at a time (which is strangely enough not all that long ago) where I realized my love for lots of shonen series but felt somehow ashamed of liking what I liked because of how many anime and manga critics and snobs looked down on the genre. I was stuck in this weird phase of wanting to sound smart and credible and felt that admitting my outright passion for many series in the genre would make me look dumb.

Of course, looking back on all of that, I merely only feel stupid for even thinking that way, but I believe that many people go through phases like that in their life. The post itself was about all of the good stuff that the genre had to offer over the years, how we have recently experienced a new wave of excellent series, and how beyond its base appeal, any great shonen series is just as valuable a piece of good fiction as any other piece of entertainment. Much like how many people find fault with Alejandro González Iñárritu's comments on the Superhero blockbuster films of recent years being cultural genocide, my post was essentially one big antithesis to the notion that this genre was just the anime or manga equivalent of "junk food", a slapdash label which I've always detested and found to be untrue.

I put A LOT of work into that post and was pretty proud of it. Why couldn't I have taken just a few more minutes to finish it off before closing my laptop!? :gonk:

I've mostly just accepted Shonen is the type genre I like most in manga and anime. Sure I can watch a Seinen or Shojo, but they mostly have to be at Urasawa, Vinland Saga, or My Love Story, level for me to get into it. Shonen is different. Unless it's insultingly stupid, I can read or watch most Shonen and be greatly entertained.

Like the comments about My Hero Academia being "generic", or Ushio & Tora being "dated", or Black Clover being a "Naruto rip off". I don't really care. Otaku can say what they want. I enjoy reading/watching them, I enjoy what they're offering, and I feel they do what they do really well. It's entertainment, and it's well done entertainment.

And yes, LumRanmaYasha is right. Shonen right now is at the best its been in years with a large number of quality series available. I now find myself seeing why it was I had lost so much interest in manga and anime (and still avoid the cliques and crowds) a few years back. That was because there just wasn't many good Shonen out there. That's not been the case over the last couple of years.

The "junk food" of anime/manga is moe. Not even sure how that's not obvious.

I've always been annoyed by people who dismiss shonen series as lesser than seinin, when there's about as much good quality works to be found in series aimed towards both demographics as there are poor ones, and that's no less true of their battle genres. Every piece of media can be categorized and broken down into tropes, but the best battle shonen know how to use the tropes and cliches inherent to the genre and twist them just enough with enough heart and character to make them compelling pieces of art and entertainment just as valuable as any intricate seinin thriller.

What I've really re-evaluated when it comes to long-manga shonen manga is to appreciate them less as a complete story but more like a television show. I prefer stories that feel like complete and fully realized beginning to end, and I still like those best, but I've become more able to appreciate the parts even if the sum doesn't totally add up. There will inevitably be peaks and valleys in any long running series, but just because a series might sour later on doesn't make the parts that were good any less so. Basically, I take back what I said before about not being able to recommend Kuroko to people on the grounds that the second half wasn't very good, and after re-visiting early Naruto, I found that I'd really underappreciated how the first few arc of the series had a genuinely interesting world, moral themes, team-based combat, and effective character development and that all still holds up. At the same time, I also now believe that a series can rebound or improve in quality over time. Boruto showed that there was still vitality left in the Naruto universe and characters to make a compelling story, and even though I couldn't care less about Nisekoi for the longest time, it really picked up and become one of my favorite manga to keep up with last year and will probably make my list this year as well. Long running manga fluctuating in quality one way or the other simply comes with the territory, and my mantra now is to just enjoy what's good when it's good and enjoy it for however long I'm able to.

I generally agree with that logic for most things in general, be it long-running manga, television, movie series, book series, video game series, and just about anything, really.

I always enjoy things for what they do right and with the exception of things meant to stand alone as a single entity like stand-alone movies or books (and even in that case there are some exceptions), I always still enjoy the well-done segments regardless of the uneven quality that the rest of the work in question may hold. I mean, hell, just take my outlook on Hunter X Hunter for example. I have a ton of problems with Togashi's writing for this series, and I have never been shy about complaining about it. Yet, I also hail it as one of my favorite Weekly Shonen Jump manga. Why? Because what it does that I absolutely love, in the end, far outweighs it's numerous shortcomings. Togashi' makes up for his sometimes seemingly inexcusable blunders by also producing some of the finest written content that I have ever seen in any manga, shonen or not, and while it doesn't erase the bad stuff, it does end up meaning a lot more to me in the end and is what I ultimately judge my overall enjoyment of the series on. For as much as the Dark Continent arc bored me in the beginning, I legitimately like what he has been doing with the series and characters over the past several weeks, and all of a sudden that occupies my mind far more than what I didn't like before that. Of course, that's all just my personal opinion on the matter, but you get the idea.

And despite the up-and-down quality of One Piece past the time-skip, I still legitimately love the first half of One Piece. Trope-heavy as it is, Oda produced some of the most exciting and emotionally-driven story arcs that I have read. I can still go back to Enies Lobby or Marineford and get chills down my spine from scenes like Luffy dealing that devastating final series of blows to Rob Lucci after fighting his ass off for so long throughout the entire arc, and experience an utter gut-punch to my feelings when I read the heart-wrenching conclusion to the Whitebeard War. I may hate the Fishman Island arc and feel so-so on other parts of the series, but that never diminishes how much I love what I love about the series.

Long-running serializations certainly have their weaknesses, but they also have the advantage of telling the kinds of stories that you simply just can't get from other forms of entertainment with limitations around those circumstances. That's what I love about shonen series.

So, this has been eating at me for quite a few years, now, and I really wanted to get my wide array of thoughts on this matter off my chest.

Ever since the cultural phenomenons that were Dragon Ball Z and Pokemon hit the West like a giant meteor in the late 90's, shonen anime and manga have been a huge staple of the medium's fandom in North America. Following suit, series like Naruto and Bleach exploded (albeit to somewhat of a lesser degree, but still a highly notable one) in the mid-2000's, creating a new wave of fans on top of the already existing ones from just a few years ago. For an overwhelming majority of anime and manga fans that I know both personally and online, many got into the medium itself through at least one shonen series of any kind, and mostly of the battle variety at that. Of course, those were the most popular of the bunch, but thanks to gateway channels like Cartoon Network's Toonami block, or YTV for those who lived in Canada, tons of other shows managed to find their way down the pipeline and convert even more people into fans.

However, as something grows so absurdly in popularity, it also inevitably incurs its detractors. In the early 2000's, quite a few people who had either had their gateway drug into Japanese entertainment of this variety through other series or movies (such as Cowboy Bebop, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Akira, Perfect Blue, etc.), or those who moved on from shonen to other series of that nature thanks to the advent of the Internet and fansubs, ended up turning against this movement of "childish" and "generic" crap. Now, admittedly, this animosity wasn't entirely baseless. The most popular series', as mentioned above, were rife with problems that long-running shonen series were prone to have in anime for. This was especially the case for the three that were adapted from source material which required the use of filler to prevent the anime from catching up to the manga. While I only liked one of those aforementioned series, anyways, that being Dragon Ball Z, I will fully acknowledge that its' base form already had its flaws, and when translated to anime much of those were expanded on in addition to new ones being added, most notably bad filler and huge pacing issues (and that's not even taking into account the bad English dubs and altered soundtracks that we got back then). Much of this crowd eventually evolved into anime critics for popular websites as well as video reviewers, and to this day we still have a large part of the community with a heavy bias towards shows and manga of this nature. They had a taste for more "artful" stuff that was "intelligent" and "challenged them" and "changed their philosophy on life" in some profound way. And the thing is, these are all certainly great qualities to have in a show. I love shows like that myself. The problem lies in how many people I ran into online (and occasionally in person) who seemed to be more concerned about how their opinions on anime and manga made them look rather than how passionate they really were about a series (one of the reasons I feel that people over-praised the original FMA back when it was the only adaptation, and then turned on it later once Brotherhood came out).

For a time, almost anything with the shonen label on it was treated as plebian fodder. With the exception of perhaps some sports series and less battle-oriented stuff, anime and manga from this genre were seen as a "guilty pleasure" sort of entertainment at best from a certain crowd. The reason for me bringing all of this up is because, at one point in time (in fact, not all that long ago all things considered), I was in danger of almost becoming one of these people. I had been told off before for my "uninspired" taste in cliche, trope-heavy series, and I desperately wanted to shake that notion away. So I tended to only support a few shonen series which I had deep attachments to, and while I had a passion and love for others, I either hid that or in some cases even convinced myself that they were just guilty pleasures and that my real favorite stuff was much more deep and intricate stuff. And the thing is, while I definitely did love plenty of non-shonen shows, I still had a strong and unshakable attachment to the genre. I was so wrapped up in not wanting to seem dumb that I ended up being dumb in even attempting to deny my true feelings on something.

And to set the record straight, I love plenty of non-shonen series. My taste is rather varied, and I like pretty much anything that can hold my interest on some level. I adore almost anything by creators such as Naoki Urasawa and Shinichi Watanabe, have been incredibly sucked into the stories and characters of Takehiko Inoue's later works such as Vagabond and REAL, was deeply impressed by legendary mangaka Osamu Tezuka's more mature content such as Ode to Kirihito, and in general I am a huge fan of way too many other series and movies to name. There are classics like Otomo's Akira, Anno's Neon Genesis Evangelion, Makoto Yukimura's Vinland Saga, and various others. I'm hardly an expert, but you can get the idea that I have read and watched my share of anime and manga of all kinds, so I'm not being ignorant of what else is out there. And you know what else, a lot of those creators would most likely agree. It's no secret that Urasawa is a huge fan of and draws a lot of influence from classic shonen manga, and Takehiko Inoue flat-out got his start in the shonen genre, which makes it very telling when you consider the fact that Slam Dunk is still by far his most successful manga to date. The idea of bringing all of this up is that I find it flat-out ridiculous that people would draw some overly-generalized bias on anything called a shonen manga when, just like the works of the mangaka above, that only does as much as describe a very roughly approximated target demographic rather than being an indicator of the quality of the individual work which happens to bear that label.

Of course, that brings us to the simple question: Why did battle shonen appeal to me (and so many other people) so much in the first place? Was it really the anime and manga equivalent of junk food, or was there something more in the mix? Well, there are two things that ended up changing (and rightfully fixing) my view on the genre. Firstly was a little manga by Tsugumi Ohba and Takeshi Obata called Bakuman. It's a manga that details the amount of hard work, effort, energy, sleepless hours, talent, technique, and life-time that creators who are obsessed with and deeply love their craft put into their work. This is most likely true of every shonen manga out there, even ones that you and I may not like. So for one thing, I came to realize how much the good shows and manga that I liked were genuinely good because the creators behind them genuinely cared about their material rather than being concerned about how much money they could make off of it. FYI, the average mangaka who doesn't come out with a Dragonball or Naruto-level mega hit doesn't exactly make a lot of money, even if their serialization is considered relatively successful. And animators get paid so little by most companies that they might as well be slaves (Toei Animation in particular is notorious for how horrible they have treated their staffs in the past). So you can bet that the people behind these works are doing it because it means so much to them that they are willing to put up with the hardships. The second thing that helped alter my opinion back to what I truly felt was this very board. It's having the freedom to express myself in a small but friendly community without fearing being judged as "dumb" or having poor taste, and also discovering that quite a few people held very similar opinions to my own, that I was able to reassess my stance on the shonen genre over time.

Here's thing thing: yes, there are a lot of shit shows and manga that have plagued the genre. However, there is shit stuff in EVERY genre, so that's a real moot point. It may not have helped that some of the most popular examples of battle shonen out there were series that weren't very good when looked at through a more critical eye, but they also hardly represented everything that the genre could offer. And yes, a lot of shonen series, including many that I myself love, follow very over-used formulas and are full of their share of tropes that you can predict. What people fail to understand is firstly, tropes are not inherently a bad thing. Chances are, most of the stuff you watch, including what you like, follows at least some of the tropes of the genre that it's a part of. Even works of fiction meant to subvert big tropes often end up succumbing to other ones in the process. The point being that none of these things alone are enough to judge a series' quality on, yet for some reason I see tons of people already willing to dismiss anything with the shonen label slapped onto it if it even remotely has any qualities that are in other series of this nature. It doesn't matter if it crafts an interesting story that develops interesting characters and produces excellent world-building which creates a really terrific experience that can in fact entertain many people for quite a long time. Over the years, I have encountered numerous series with high-quality value on par with any other great or critically acclaimed series, and it's all about playing to the strengths of the style of story-telling that this genre allows its creators to produce. And now, more than ever, is this concept being realized in numerous works.

Take for example, a series like My Hero Academia. People who checked out just one episode of the anime were quick to point out how on a surface level it's just a typical story with a typical protagonist who's an underdog with no talent or abilities and will obviously rise in rank over the course of the series and prove himself against all of the naysayers. What irks me about such a criticism is that not only is it really ignorant to judge a series that early on simply because of what they assumed from an episode or two, but it's also very naive and narrow-minded for people to not actually notice that there's more going on in the series than what's on the surface level, and that's where its true themes and values lie. What's so brilliant about this series is in how it takes common cliches like that but finds a way to present them not only in a manner that helps the story and character development flow well, but also manages to expand on how interesting and nuanced its world can be. Going past the surface level of kids training at the Hogwarts of superhero high-schools, we learn that the increase in people being born with Quirks has expanded to such a point that the act of being a superhero is a highly commercialized career choice. Other members of societies use their abilities in performing ordinary mundane tasks, and being born completely Quirkless like Midoriya is actually considered to be an abnormal defect. We also get elements like politics and media playing heavily into the story, and cleverly being introduced into the mix gradually. The government needs to have some control over heroes in a way that gives people faith in their system, but that also means regulating their actions in a way that's not always in the immediate best interest of justice. The media loves any opportunity to run with a hot story and question the safety and structure of highly esteemed establishments like UA Academy. And in this world where heroics have become a profitable commodity and service rather than a pure form of good will, you naturally have very understandable and appropriate reasons for villains to also exist. Just dismissing all of this as a "generic shonen" is unreasonably stupid given how much more there is to it and how expertly it's all crafted.

Another thing that's been notable about the genre in recent years is how many remakes of older shonen manga we have gotten that have also helped bring in a new wave of fans for classics that didn't get much of a chance in the day. We of course have stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood which was a more faithful adaptation of the original manga, and famous examples of modern shonen adaptations of older long-running series like Level E, Hunter X Hunter, and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. Of particular note, though, is the criminally underrated Ushio and Tora. Starting last year (and completing its run this very week), this popular long-running series from the 90's ended up receiving a full-fledged anime adaptation detailing its entire story, and it's just more proof of the plethora of superb material from the genre there is to pull from. To me, U&T is the bar by which long-form story-telling for any serialized action series should be measured. What starts out with a simple enough premise of two unlikely heroes teaming up fight evil quickly evolves into an incredibly engaging and epic quest to save a fully realized world with a sizable cast of supporting characters who are just as interesting and well developed as the two main leads. We get a story with pieces that all fit together from beginning to end, and one of the most interesting mythologies that I have experienced in any form of fiction. What makes the mythology and world building elements of U&T so memorable is in how it works in tandem with the story and character development. For instance, Tora's past spans several-thousand years, and thus he is a very cleverly-crafted surrogate character for the audience to learn the extensive history of the world which he inhabits without it feeling like we are being force-fed extraneous exposition. And since the series draws from all kinds of Eastern mythology rather than staying strictly Japanese, we get extensive insight into subject material that we would otherwise be completely oblivious to. What completes the full package is in how this series exhibits one of the most deviously threatening yet simultaneously interesting "final-boss" style villains that I have seen in a long time. Hakumen no Mono works as that "ultimate dark entity" so well, which is a villain archetype that is actually incredibly hard to pull off. Most works of fantasy utterly fail at making such a villain interesting because they tend to come as a bad combination of being too powerful for their own good and portraying very shallow and boring personalities with little to no depth. Fujita throws Hakumen in the face of all of that mediocrity and crafts a villain that does have all of those qualities which most of his kind lack. In essence, U&T is yet another series that can easily be dismissed as a "standard shonen" but contains so much more to its make-up and context that the people who generally dismiss works from this genre simply for the sake of arbitrary biases are really missing out.

I could go on with even more examples. Just take a look at Weekly Shonen Jump. Good god am I a massive fan of this publication. Oh sure, it has had its stumbles with numerous series and I am no fan of the previously mentioned titles Naruto or Bleach, but there's so much else on offer throughout the history of this publication. When you consider the multitude of series that I grew up with in addition to many of the great works that have come out over the years, WSJ is my equivalent of what Marvel and DC are to many huge superhero fans. There's Eichiro Oda's legendary One Piece, which despite its fluctuating quality in recent years, contains some of the richest and most rewarding story-lines in any comic book that I have ever read for those ready to actually have fun with the series and let their pre-conceived discrimination of Oda's art-style go. Akira Toriyama's world-famous Dragonball, while suffering its fair share of blunders in animated form, remains to be one of the most expertly crafted works in the medium. There are very few comics that I have read which can match the breadth and fluidity of Toriyama's incredibly fluid and highly imaginative artwork, and how he can use it to expand his humor and enhance his story in a way that even makes it easy to forgive his narrative weaknesses and problems balancing his cast in the later arcs. There is the publication's famous variety of excellent competition-based series that have made their mark over the past several decades, like Takehiko Inoue's aforementioned Slam Dunk, Riichiro Inagaki and Yusuke Murata's zany collaboration in Eyeshield 21, Yumi Hotta's highly unique Hikaru no Go, and even currently running works such as Tsukuda Yuto and Saeki Shun's Food Wars!, and Haruichi Furudate's Haikyu!!, which is of particular note for having one of the most well-directed, animated, and scored anime adaptations of any manga that I have ever seen. It essentially serves as living proof of my belief that any standard story can be made excellent through incredibly well-designed execution. And in addition to other famous action-fare like Hirohiko Araki's first six parts of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and Yoshihiro Togashi's incredibly esteemed Yu Yu Hakusho and Hunter X Hunter, it's a wonder how anyone could accuse WSJ of being anything other than rightfully deserving of its well-renowned glory and legacy. And yes, that's not mentioning even half of the great offerings from the publication solely based on what I have actually read so far, and that's also excluding tons of great non battle-oriented manga from them like Tsugumi Ohba and Takeshi Ohbata's collaborations among many other series of note. But of course I would be amiss to leave this off at just those without mentioning my absolute favorite work from the publication and one of my favorite works of fiction of all time, Nobuhiro Watsuki's Rurouni Kenshin. The Remembrance story-arc in particular is perhaps one of the most effectively tragic and profoundly meaningful character pieces that I have ever read. When you read something as masterfully written as that, I can't even fathom how arbitrary words like "shonen" can even begin to phase the sheer quality on display here.

And I wouldn't be caught dead before bringing up two of the most undisputed classics of the battle shonen genre. Despite its uneven quality, Osamu Tezuka's Astro Boy is a so-called "children's manga" with the shonen label on it, but explain to me how that means anything negative in any regard when it is a work renowned world-wide for some of the most iconic and meaningful story-lines ever published in comic book form? And that reputation is not merely held just in Japan. For one thing, check out LumRanmaYasha's excellent piece on the Once Upon A Time arc in our Top 30 Story Arcs list from a couple of years ago if you want a good example. Or read something like The World's Greatest Robot story-line. This is the very story-line that Naoki Urasawa would eventually re-imagine in the form of the critically-acclaimed series called Pluto; as in, a Seinen manga which was directly written to explore the complex and poignant themes disguised in the form of a Shonen manga. Why I specifically bring up this example is just to show how even the restriction of age demographic truly has no bearing on the actual quality or intellect of the material being presented. Sure, the content itself may be written and illustrated in a way that can be considered suitable for younger audiences to view, but that does not inherently limit its potential for exploring mature and intriguing themes that many older audiences would find interesting. It may go over the heads of any children reading it, but on some level they notice and appreciate the extra care and effort put into giving them a story that takes them seriously as an audience, and looking back on such works as an adult can uncover so much more to appreciate that you may not have understood before. In fact, the true beauty of it all is that in presenting these themes to us in the form of a children's shonen manga, Osamu Tezuka has effectively highlighted the importance of these themes to people of all kinds, regardless of gender, race, culture, time period, or age.

The other notable example is of course my favorite manga of all time, Ikki Kajiwara (Asaki Takamori) and Tetsuya Chiba's Ashita no Joe. However, since I've already rambled on for far too long at this point, I'll just lazily plug in my earlier piece of writing on it (http://animationrevelation.com/readables/?p=2538) from a few years back.

Having said all that I have said so far, though, I must bring up one more point to conclude my thoughts here. If I had to pick one thing about the many good shonen series that I like, the one thing that they have in common that attracts me to works of this nature in the first place, the one thing that I feel people really should understand to have a better grasp on what people like me find so special about titles of this genre when they do actually come together in a way that truly works, it's the ability of this form of entertainment to sum up and display such an enormous amount of emotions, feelings, and heart in a single, short, compact moment that rewards you for all of your investment up to that point. I'm talking about iconic scenes that eternally stay with me. Scenes that never fail to send chills down my spine or warm my heart or even manage to combine both. Slam Dunk is a shonen series that gave me an unforgettable, tense, and exciting moment where in the final seconds of the Shohoku Vs. Sannoh match, after hundreds of chapters of character development, Rukawa finally puts all of his trust in Sakuragi by passing him the ball and allowing him to take that final, fateful shot which would decide the outcome of their match. I remember scenes like Piccolo from Dragonball completing his redemption arc by using his own body to shield his pupil Gohan from a Nappa's fatal Ki blast, saving his life in the process, and in effect he has shown his compassion for the son of the very man of whom it was his life-goal to kill. In One Piece I feel a sense of both pride and emotion when Whitebeard makes his final stand in the face of certain death at the conclusion of the epic Battle at Marineford, and that's not even mentioning the numerous other iconic moments where Luffy and crew manage to overcome overwhelming odds to reward my investment in the story with some of the most memorable defeats of unforgettable villains in any manga. At the conclusion of all of the death, bloodshed, and carnage that Jotaro Kujo and his friends have had to endure in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 3: Stardust Crusaders, I feel a sense of genuine accomplishment along with JoJo when he deals that final fatal blow to DIO. The resolution of Meruem's character arc in Hunter X Hunter is one of the greatest endings to a character arc that I have seen in any piece of fiction, yet it's only second to the moment that cements Killua's personal redemption from an earlier scene in that very arc. When Kenshin Himura cradles Tomoe's lifeless body in his arms after she carves that iconic scar on his face in Rurouni Kenshin, followed shortly by that scene of Kenshin wandering off into the distance to start his path of atonement, I am endowed with an array of complex yet somehow also rather simple feelings that I can't even properly put into words. When I re-watch that final farewell scene from Digimon Tamers, my eyes still tear up to this day and I just can't control it. And whenever I revisit the amazing conclusion of the Rikiishi arc in Ashita no Joe and I read those iconic words "Stand up and fight, Joe!" I am immediately overwhelmed by a sense of drive, and I actually legitimately go back and read this scene whenever I am facing a tough time in my life. Yes, that's how much a scene from a "mere shonen" manga means to me.

My ultimate goal with all of this was just to express my own honest feelings on how passionate I am about so many shonen series. This wasn't really meant to change anyone else's mind or views on this subject matter, and if it seems silly to you for me to go into this much extraneous detail then that's fine, and you're not exactly wrong. However, I suppose you could say that this was meant as a form of me coming to terms with myself. While I have felt this way for a long time, it feels good to just come right out and say it. I hate that I ever even tried to deny myself the right to genuinely like what I like for even a short period of time. Just like any other genre, shonen of any kind, be it battle-oriented or not, is not inherently a good or bad thing. However there are a shit-ton of shonen that I love, and I have absolutely no shame in that, and never should. Several series that mean so much to me are shonen, and that just means that they are pretty fucking awesome in my book.

So, in conclusion: Fuck the naysayers, fuck the critics, fuck the snobs, and fuck anyone else who tells me otherwise. Peace out. :awesome:

Awesome post!  :joy: You've articulated so passionately everything that makes shonen series so entertaining and meaningful, and how personally so many of them mean to you. I was also once self-concious about some of the series I liked once upon a time, but now I realize that's ridiculous. If a series resonates with you on a strong emotional level and you can articulate why, you should feel no shame about enjoying it, nor should you care about being looked down upon by so-called elitists who decry shonen as somehow lesser entertainment. It's no exaggeration to say that I think of my favorite moments from series like Ashita no Joe, Astro Boy, Rurouni Kenshin, Yu Yu Hakusho and countless others everyday - all of which are battle shonen series, and yet all of which so different from one another in tone and genre. And how anyone can dismiss phenomenal pieces of storytelling like the Rise of Joe Yabuki, Once Upon A Time, Remembrance, or Chapter Black just because they come from battle manga and are series ostensibly aimed towards kids is just ridiculous and doesn't give them the respect and appreciation they really deserve.

And yes, everybody who wants to understand the appeal of shonen manga and the manga industry in general should read Bakuman. There's no manga that does a better job describing all the hard work and passion that goes into making a great series in such a competitive and taxing profession.

Thanks! This is very much a class of anime and manga that I have only come to appreciate more over the years for just how engaging it can be when it's done right, and for as many low quality series that there are, I can think of a ton of good to great ones.

And I really can't say enough how much I love the duo of Tsugumi Ohba and Takeshi Obata. They just have such a deep and passionate understanding of good manga and how to play to the strengths of the Shonen formula, hence why Death Note and Bakuman are easily among my favorite WSJ series and manga in general. And yeah, I won't deny that Platinum End has been rather disappointing for me, but one "meh" series doesn't wash out the excellence of two great series before it, one of which really helped educate and shape my views on the Shonen genre at large, and it still wouldn't stop me from getting excited about and reading their future works. Just like the characters in Bakuman, this duo likes to experiment with different ideas, and while they may not always work out, you can definitely tell that they learn from their experiences. So just like how I am eternally grateful to Nobuhiro Watsuki for Rurouni Kenshin alone, Ohba and Obata have earned the right to fuck-up from time to time and it still wouldn't diminish my respect and admiration for them. And to be clear, I don't consider PE to be a terrible manga; just a really mediocre one.

Very good series of posts.

It's sort of similar to what happened to me and Flame of Recca. For a long time I sort of ignored it as a decent shonen, but not anything particularly great. But as the years past, I kept thinking back on it and how well it did things I really appreciate. Then I finally broke down and started re-reading it and I can't deny that it is one of my favorite manga. That's one of the reasons I started that feature (that I should hopefully get back to in a few weeks) not only to give the series more attention but to explain just why I like it so much. I now own 1/3 of the series and I keep wondering why I put it off for so long. It's clearly one of my favorites.

I like that you brought up Death Note, because I think it perfectly encapsulates what you were talking about with the FMA backlash. Let's be real, Death Note is about absolute power corrupting and if it can be stopped. It's a detective noir thriller with a compelling cast of characters.

But it's not a philosophical work of brilliance. It was never meant to be anything but a good story of a corrupt teenager who tries to remake the world in his own image. I bring this up, because, well, do you remember the reaction to it when it first came out? It was as if people had to explain away why they liked a shonen series. It couldn't be just because it was well written and engaging with great themes. No, it had to be because it was a work of high art making a commentary on how "bad guys are really good guys and good guys are really bad guys" and how much of a "hero" Light Yagami actually was. Heck, look at all those remakes and random films that don't get the appeal of the original series. How many of them do you think ever used the term "shonen" to describe the series? I'm betting less than zero.

But it was a shonen. It followed all the trappings of the genre without crossing into seinen territory. The police and their allies were the protagonists and Light was the antagonist. It's not that subversive except that we are seeing the story from the bad guy's perspective. That's it. But you probably couldn't find anyone to admit it succeeded as a shonen without adding in a jab at shonen itself.

And I will continue to give Nobuhiro Watsuki infinite chances until he retires. If you wrote Rurouni Kenshin, you would earn just as many chances from me, too.

Thanks for the comments! :joy:

In regard to Death Note, it always really bugged me how people used to praise it so highly for what it wasn't. I love Death Note. It's a great series, but it's not a deep, philosophical exploration of the themes of what makes a person just. It's a fun suspense thriller that's meant to keep you hooked by seeing how its key characters work their way around interesting and desperate situations. In that manner, it has a lot more in common with something like Kaiji than Neon Genesis Evangelion, and that's not a bad thing by any means. I remember back on TV.com this one jerk-off who always bragged about how "sophisticated" his taste was since he liked a lot of deep and mature Seinen manga and anime. However he did admit to liking Death Note but said that it really shouldn't be a shonen. That really just frustrated the hell out of me in ways that I couldn't properly express at the time. Out of curiosity, I wonder if Foggle remembers any of this, because he was there too at the time. :>

What irked me even more is when haters started bashing the series for failing to actually be the deep, philosophical work that so many fans claimed it was, but it was so clear to me that people had painted a very inappropriate picture of the series that completely misrepresented what it truly was. Even the author himself (or herself?) said that Death Note was not by any means a complex or intricate series. Ohba flat-out admitted to coming up with the story on the spot every week like most shonen mangaka pretty much have to do because of the nature of their work, and said that people claiming that Light was some sort of tragic hero were overthinking things a bit too much. In that interview that I read, Ohba stated that Light is definitely evil, and that L is somewhat evil. It's as clear and simple as that, and anyone reading the manga for what it was could see and appreciate that. But, now, we had snobs who could also see that the manga and anime were good but didn't want to look "dumb" for liking a shonen, so they had to differentiate it from the rest of the genre as much as possible, and that really ended up hurting the series' reputation in the long run.

As for Nobuhiro Watsuki, I think the reason that I still have faith in him, despite RK being his only work that I outright love, is firstly that none of his post-RK works are actually bad by any means. Gunblaze West, Busou Renkin, and Frankenstein are all decently enjoyable series in their own rights that I don't regret having read (although, I admit that I only read about halfway through Frankenstein, so I have no idea if it gets any better or worse). However, as you mentioned in an earlier post, Desensitized, there was just something missing from each of those works that prevented them from having that "complete package" feeling that Rurouni Kenshin had. The thing is, each of those series had at least a moment or two, from what I can recall, where I got a sense of that old magic that Watsuki worked to make RK such a winning formula. But, that's just it: they were relegated to mere chance moments rather than him being able to hold that feeling throughout most of his series' runs. If Watsuki has produced nothing but bad or uninspired content after RK, then I'd probably have no faith in him and figured that he just lucked out. Instead, because I love RK so much and because his proceeding works have had traces of greatness sprinkled throughout their overall average but entertaining serializations, I do still hold faith that Watsuki still has it somewhere within himself to produce another truly great work again. And even if his next work is on the level of the rest of his post-RK stuff, I'll still hold out that hope on my end, because even with his weaker stuff, I still get that sense that he's really trying and busting his ass to make something that the readers will enjoy. I just believe that he needs to rediscover his roots in order to truly move forward with higher quality work again.

Here's a quote that's going to be considered controversial for modern anime and manga fans, who will probably misunderstand what he's saying. From Michihiko Toei:

Quote"I'm wonderful just the way I am," "each of us is special by nature," "you don't have to be number one" — the truth is, all the creative works that say this are lying to make sales. If they say it, everyone will happily buy them. If we really believe this, making a recovery in our lives becomes harder. From the late '90s to the early 2000s, themes like "you don't have to put in effort," "you don't have to overdo it" and "you don't have to persevere" became common, but take a look at the lives young people brought up on this are leading. If you look at the protagonists of manga popular in the '70s, you'll understand that it was a time where if you didn't put your life into organizations or missions or skills, you wouldn't be accepted... well, all right, maybe I get the feeling that this goes too far, but if you don't put everything you have into life, you'll be left with nothing but regret.

"Putting everything you have into life" might be a weird expression, but isn't the outlook of someone like Kazuhiko Shimamoto better?

Now, I know three arguments will spring up from this.

1. He's just an old man waxing nostalgic! Things were not better back then! They're better now!
2. He thinks people should overwork themselves to death!
3. He's telling people to not be themselves!

All of which, are incorrect.

His argument, which is centered on shonen, by the way, is that it's supposed to inspire its audience to greater heights. It's easy to tell a story about someone who doesn't need to improve or grow in any way. It's also a really lame concept that is a breeding ground for Mary Sue characters. "Being true to yourself" is not the same as thing as not trying the best you can. The reason he says works that don't inspire are lying to make sales, is because the stuff that has this central message is usually garbage that is forgettable in the long run even if initially successful. It's also not a true message that you should never try to aim higher than you are.

It's funny that he put a timetable like that, too. The end of the '90s through much of the '00s was full of shonen exactly like that.

Look at Hitman Reborn!, for instance. There are no characters that aspire to anything, have no real motivation to fight, but there sure is a lot of cool flashy stuff going on, isn't there? The main character is never proven wrong about anything (because he has no goals except to be left alone, despite having ample reasons to change his mind) and never grows at all except in physical strength. The series was such a flash in the pan that it had a crappy ending just like Shaman King, only it never got a proper later add-on like the latter series did. And it probably never will because its fanbase already moved on to the next boring series. They had their pick of the litter through most of the '00s.

This isn't as much of a problem as it was a couple of years ago, however. My Hero Academia, Black Clover, Food Wars, World Trigger, Haikyuu!, and others, in Jump alone, show many characters with defined ambition and goals beyond being placated with mediocrity. There's something about a story where the characters always do their best that speaks to me in a way that others do not. But as for shonen, I would argue that it's a key component that should always be part of the story in some aspect. It's also why a lot of the stuff he's talking about rubbed me wrong a while back.

I don't really see why too many people (if any) would take that the wrong way. His statement seems pretty clear. It makes perfect sense that characters that aspire to better themselves and constantly strive for some form of self-improvement would be more endearing than most characters that are just OK with who they are and have no character arcs whatsoever. Static characters can work in short stories and movies, but in a long-running serialization they get stale quickly. Take something like Prince of Tennis, where the main character seems unbelievably great at the beginning. It just gets really boring since he really has nothing to overcome, so what's the point of him being the main character? Why are we following him throughout the story if he has nothing to gain in the first place? It just gets boring. Of course, there is an exception to this logic with characters like Joe Yabuki, who are intentionally written to initially have little to no values. Joe Yabuki has natural talent as a boxer, but doesn't really have any drive or passion to be one for a large portion of the first part of the story. However, what keeps him interesting during this part of the story is how he is not portrayed as a bad-ass for it, but rather as a heavily flawed character with a rather sad lack of meaning to his life. It makes it all the more rewarding when he gradually develops and finally does gain that drive to become the icon that he eventually does.

Now, that's not to say that every character has to have a goal to be interesting. Characters like Yusuke Urameshi have no real ambitions so to speak of. Throughout all of Yu Yu Hakusho, he's not striving for some ultimate dream like a lot of other shonen characters. Yet, why then are we still invested in him as a character? It's because despite all of this, he is still growing and bettering himself throughout his character arc. Yes, he does get stronger as the series progresses, but more than that he continually evolves towards a sort of emotional maturity that makes it satisfying to stick with him as each new dilemma comes into his life. So in that regard, with or without a goal, if the character is progressing himself or herself in some notable way throughout the course of the series, then it's usually a story worth sticking through to the end.

So yeah, I agree with Michihiko Toei's outlook on how always trying to be the best person that you can be, and never being satisfied with just where you're at right now, is an admirable quality to have, and a theme that's infinitely more interesting than one of "just be happy with yourself", which may work as good PSA BS, but tends to not make for such an interesting character or story to follow.

I doubt anyone here would take it that way, but I'm sure there are many who would on the usual sites.

It's funny you bring up Prince of Tennis, because I almost used that as an example myself. It's such a flat series, especially considering how boring the main character is. There's just nothing to hook you in to the story.

With the ending of many series from the unofficial Silver Age of Jump, I'd like to do a bit of a comparison between the two eras. Those eras being what is running now, and what was running then.

This is what Jump runs now:

Haikyuu!!
One Piece
Black Clover
My Hero Academia
Boruto
Samon the Summoner
Kimetsu no Yaiba: Blade of Demon Destruction
Food Wars!: Shokugeki no Souma
Hinomaru Zumou
Straighten Up! Welcome to Shika High's Competitive Dance Club
Toriko
Yuna of Yuragi Manor
Gintama
World Trigger
Kochikame
Takuan and Batsu's Daily Demon Diary
The Disastrous Life of Saiki K.
Mononofu
Bleach
Nisekoi
Chronicle of Isobe -Life is Hard-


This is what they were running in the dead center of the Silver Age at this time in 2006:

Eyeshield 21
One Piece
Naruto
Bleach
D.Gray-man
Maison Du Penguin
Hitman Reborn!
Zan
Taizo Moteo King Saga
Gintama
Over Time
Kochikame
Majin Tantei Nogami Neuro
To-LOVE-Ru
Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo
Muhyo & Ryoji's Bureau of Supernatural Investigation
Mieru Hito
Mx0
Murasame-kun
Prince of Tennis
Jaguar


HxH ran in both and started before them so it doesn't count as a point for either era. It's also technically a Dark Age series like One Piece which also doesn't count for either. Kochikame speaks for itself.

I also counted series from the middle of the year. This way neither Death Note or Assassination Classroom count for either era even though they both ended in their respective years, but you can talk about either if you want. For the sake of the topic, they sort of canceled each other out in my mind. That said, they are both great series for what they do.

It's a ten year spread, just as it was between the previous age and the Golden Age. So, what to say? It does feel like Jump has changed a lot since 2006, just as it did since 1996. But I have to be honest and say that the series list from 2006 does almost nothing for me as a whole. For one, a few of those series were canceled pretty fast, and for another, a lot of what's there is bland. Of course, there are some great series in there like Eyeshield 21, Bo^7, Muhyo & Ryoji, Neuro, and Mx0, the rest doesn't hold up very well. Even Gintama wasn't that great at the beginning, but is now far ahead of where it started. But as a whole, I don't find the list from 10 years ago a very cohesive list of weekly series.

I'm not of the opinion that the Silver Age holds a candle to the Golden Age, but I also don't think it stacks up to what's in the magazine now. For one, the battle manga in the magazine now is undoubtedly better as a whole. The sports series are more consistent (E21 is great, PoT is not) and feature some pretty out there concepts. The comedy is more well rounded, though romance is still pretty much the same. Oh, and since so many series are doing well and series are naturally ending, nothing has been canceled in a surprisingly long time. This gives the series more time to grow.

The biggest thing for me is that I just plain like more of the series running now than I did ten years ago. Looking at the list, I'd guess the only series not something I enjoy reading would be Yuna (To Love Ru for the same reason), Toriko (because I'm lost), Samon (though it might have improved), and Bleach (for obvious reasons). Everything else is pretty good at what it does, and some are on the path to being outright all-time favorites.

Guess what I'm saying is that I consider the current age far more of a Silver Age than the one from ten years ago. It reminds me more of Jump at its peak.

Here's hoping they can keep it up.

Jump's lineup is indeed much better than it was a decade ago. I enjoy or appreciate almost every series running to some extent, with the exceptions of Yuna, Bleach, and Takuan & Batsu (I'm reevaluating my judgement on Samon after I read more chapters past what the english Jump run), but the most important thing about them is that they all feel distinct in tone and feel from each other with different strengths and niches. Their lineup is just so much more eclectic and interesting than it was a decade ago, and there's most certainly at least one series they're currently running that will attract your attention and you'll enjoy. Overall, it's just a great time to be a Jump fan, and I'm hoping the new blood that'll replace the soon-to-be ending series helps solidify this new era of Jump as it's second strongest after the Golden Age.

To be honest, there were more series that I liked running from that decade than I expected. To be honest, I haven't kept up with a whole lot of WSJ manga from the present, but I do enjoy what I'm reading in general. Still, I tend to not divide things up too much by what era they came in, and just like Jump as a whole for the plethora of good series that it has produced over the years, regardless of when they came out.

I would say that MHA is a better battle shonen series than anything else that was running in Jump ten years ago aside from One Piece, but One Piece was a much stronger manga ten years ago than it is now (not to say that it's bad now, but it was undeniably in its prime about a decade ago). Meanwhile Prince of Tennis was awful, but Eyeshield 21 was excellent. However I find Haikyuu!! to be a rather average manga (I love the anime, of course), but Straighten Up! and Food Wars! pick up the slack as far as competition-based manga series go.

Also, isn't Boruto serialized in one of Jump's monthly spin-off magazines? I'm not sure if it's part of the Weekly Shonen Jump line-up.

Anyways, my point is that while I can certainly agree that Jump is in a really good place right now, and that there were a large number of series that I really disliked from ten years ago, I also feel that Jump, to its credit, didn't exactly slouch last decade either. It may not quite compare to the Golden Age and might not be quite as strong as what we have now, but I wouldn't call it a particularly weak offering either. I mean, hell, the fact that you actually managed to list five of those good series that you did from just that year alone is pretty telling. And if you include the decade as a whole, you also have stuff like Hikaru no Go, Death Note, and JoJo's Bizarre Adenture: Stone Ocean to consider, among others.

I think it would be a fair statement to say that Jump was in a long transitional period between its Golden Age and now during that point in time, and to some extent it still is transitioning, but it managed to find its footing quite well this decade. That doesn't however mean that it had nothing going for it even when it was struggling through some of its weaker years. If anything, my only major gripe from that era of jump was that series like Naruto and Bleach ruled the battle genre and consequently we got eve more sub-par stuff like D. Gray-Man and Hitman Reborn. So, you could say that last decade had a fairly weak output in good battle manga, but it still had quite a few good offerings of manga in general.

Boruto is monthly, but it runs in normal Jump.

I'm just using the popular terms. I mean, the so-called "Dark Age" gave birth to Hunter X Hunter, One Piece, and was carried by Rurouni Kenshin. And that's supposedly its "weaker" era.

Shonen Jump has been a pretty consistently entertaining magazine since its inception, but I think now is the first time since the Golden Age that ended in the mid-90s that they've been this strong as a whole. I find myself surprised by how much in there I actually enjoy a good deal.

Quote from: Dr. Ensatsu-ken on July 08, 2016, 10:19:06 PM
To be honest, there were more series that I liked running from that decade than I expected. To be honest, I haven't kept up with a whole lot of WSJ manga from the present, but I do enjoy what I'm reading in general. Still, I tend to not divide things up too much by what era they came in, and just like Jump as a whole for the plethora of good series that it has produced over the years, regardless of when they came out.

I would say that MHA is a better battle shonen series than anything else that was running in Jump ten years ago aside from One Piece, but One Piece was a much stronger manga ten years ago than it is now (not to say that it's bad now, but it was undeniably in its prime about a decade ago). Meanwhile Prince of Tennis was awful, but Eyeshield 21 was excellent. However I find Haikyuu!! to be a rather average manga (I love the anime, of course), but Straighten Up! and Food Wars! pick up the slack as far as competition-based manga series go.

Also, isn't Boruto serialized in one of Jump's monthly spin-off magazines? I'm not sure if it's part of the Weekly Shonen Jump line-up.

Anyways, my point is that while I can certainly agree that Jump is in a really good place right now, and that there were a large number of series that I really disliked from ten years ago, I also feel that Jump, to its credit, didn't exactly slouch last decade either. It may not quite compare to the Golden Age and might not be quite as strong as what we have now, but I wouldn't call it a particularly weak offering either. I mean, hell, the fact that you actually managed to list five of those good series that you did from just that year alone is pretty telling. And if you include the decade as a whole, you also have stuff like Hikaru no Go, Death Note, and JoJo's Bizarre Adenture: Stone Ocean to consider, among others.

I think it would be a fair statement to say that Jump was in a long transitional period between its Golden Age and now during that point in time, and to some extent it still is transitioning, but it managed to find its footing quite well this decade. That doesn't however mean that it had nothing going for it even when it was struggling through some of its weaker years. If anything, my only major gripe from that era of jump was that series like Naruto and Bleach ruled the battle genre and consequently we got eve more sub-par stuff like D. Gray-Man and Hitman Reborn. So, you could say that last decade had a fairly weak output in good battle manga, but it still had quite a few good offerings of manga in general.

There definitely is a lot of great series and modern classics that came out of Jump in the 00's than people give it credit for. But I feel that the current era has proven itself more consistent in the quality of its series, and with the direction that they and Jump as a whole have been taking, I think that more of them will be well-remembered down the line years from now, whereas about half of the stuff they were running in 2006 either didn't last long, aged well, or has fallen into obscurity. But definitely, the biggest and best change in Jump now is that battle-manga no longer dominates the lineup, and there's a lot more variety and creativity in their series and lineup as whole.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 08, 2016, 10:27:58 PM

I'm just using the popular terms. I mean, the so-called "Dark Age" gave birth to Hunter X Hunter, One Piece, and was carried by Rurouni Kenshin. And that's supposedly its "weaker" era.

Well, the terms more refer to Jump's relative popularity through the years, and less the quality of the series that run or debuted during the timeperiod. The "Dark Age" was thus because Jump had lost nearly half it's readership from the double-whammy of losing Dragon Ball and Slam Dunk, and struggled for a few years to really find another powerhouse that would expand their readership again until One Piece starting picking up steam and became a power-couple with Naruto in the early 00's. 

Quote from: LumRanmaYasha on July 08, 2016, 10:38:50 PM

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 08, 2016, 10:27:58 PM

I'm just using the popular terms. I mean, the so-called "Dark Age" gave birth to Hunter X Hunter, One Piece, and was carried by Rurouni Kenshin. And that's supposedly its "weaker" era.

Well, the terms more refer to Jump's relative popularity through the years, and less the quality of the series that run or debuted during the timeperiod. The "Dark Age" was thus because Jump had lost nearly half it's readership from the double-whammy of losing Dragon Ball and Slam Dunk, and struggled for a few years to really find another powerhouse that would expand their readership again until One Piece starting picking up steam and became a power-couple with Naruto in the early 00's. 

Yes, the "Big 3" that carried Jump through the Silver Age. I've never been as enamored with those series as others, but there's no doubt that they were high sellers that brought the readers in.

Of course, the flip side was that they started a trend of battle manga that all followed the same formula and are all basically forgotten now. Thankfully, now that the era is over with Naruto gone and Bleach wrapping up, there is room for more varied battle manga to breathe. MHA, in particular, is a series that exists as a response to Naruto. If this is an example of post-Big 3 battle manga, then we should all be glad that era is done.

And to take it from LumRanmaYasha, we can compare the battle series specifically since this is the thread for it. I cut out the series that aren't battle and are long since forgotten. Unfortunately, that includes Mx0.


Silver:

One Piece
Naruto
Bleach
D.Gray-man
Hitman Reborn!
Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo


Modern:

One Piece
Black Clover
My Hero Academia
Kimetsu no Yaiba: Blade of Demon Destruction
Toriko
World Trigger
Bleach


The battle manga in the latter list are all very different from one another. OP is an epic, Black Clover is very traditional, MHA is heavily character-based, KnY is old school in a very old school way, Toriko is insane, World Trigger is based on military-style tactics, and Bleach is about whatever Kubo ate before plotting the chapter out.

In the former, there's Bo^7 which, let's face it, succeeds because it's a comedy first and One Piece which is its own thing. The other series don't really do much that's original at all. Some were well done at points, especially Naruto and Bleach near the beginning, but as a whole they are all fairly samey. And if I'm being honest, I was never all that engrossed in Bleach or Naruto, even at their peaks. Compared to Dragon Ball, Fist of the North Star, Saint Seiya, Yu Yu Hakusho, or Rurouni Kenshin, they just don't rank.

But yes, I would agree that Jump's weakness ten years ago, was ironically their selling point at the time. The battle manga from back then, the popular stuff, just isn't all that great looking back on it. If it wasn't for their non-battle stuff, I'm not sure if I would have bothered reading them at all.

Quote from: Spark Of Spirit on July 08, 2016, 10:55:19 PMBleach is about whatever Kubo ate before plotting the chapter out.

This should legit be the manga's official tagline.

So I watched Bort: Naruto the Movie, and the experience made me wonder just which shonen protagonist became a good, attentive father to their children? Like seeing Naruto join Goku and Jotaro in the absent dads category is making me wonder who's a lead character to buck that trend.

To be fair (and believe me, I have no sympathy for Naruto as a character), he does actually have a ton of responsibilities to attend to as a leader, so he has more of an excuse to not be around his family that much than other characters of that sort do.

As for Goku, though, I'd say that it's only by the Cell arc that you could call him a bad father, mainly for not understand Gohan's mostly pacifist nature and basically throwing him into a life-or-death situation before he was ready. Before that point he was fine, though. It's the TFS parodies that overexaggerated his poor parenting skills and made him seem much more deadbeat than he was at that point.

As for main characters who make good fathers in shonen....I suppose Kenshin would probably make a good father if the series had actually gone on from where it ended. It's an assumption on my part, but not an unreasonable one based on how we know that the character gave up fighting altogether in order to start a family in the first place.

And going by Dragon Ball Super, Gohan is a pretty great dad to HIS kid. I know that he's not a main character anymore, but he could be considered as having been one for at least a portion of Dragonball.

That said, I think that while in our culture it's much more baffling to see this sort of behavior, even in fiction, it seems to be a trope in a lot of shonen manga for the children to learn to stand on their own feet and not rely on being babied by their parents in order to grow and mature into adults themselves. I believe that's more of a thematic choice than negligent writing in most cases, especially because in cases like Naruto and Dragonball, the lack of proper parenting is clearly pointed out rather than being ignored (Boruto has a lot of animosity towards his father, and Piccolo lashes out at Goku for basically forcing Gohan into a situation which he clearly wasn't mentally ready for). That's the same sort of logic that series like One Piece and Hunter X Hunter follow. Hell, in Yu Yu Hakusho, it's very telling that Togashi only gives Yusuke one parent to look after him, and that's his mother, who as it turns out doesn't look after him very well at all, forcing him to basically raise himself. And it's even more telling that instead of the wise old master archetype serving as a father-figure for the lead, Togashi once again subverts the trope by having Genkai be Yusuke's master and serving a "tough-love" motherly sort of role. And once again in more recent manga like My Hero Academia, only Midoriya's mother is present in his life. And while we're at it, we never see Mashiro's father in Bakuman. In Food Wars!, Soma's father basically leaves him to fend for himself once he's old enough to attend an elite culinary High School. And in JoJo's Bizarre adventure, we have three JoJo's in a row between parts two to four who only have mother-figures to look up to (you could argue that Joseph does eventually become Josuke's father-figure, but he's barely in enough scenes in DiU to really count that). So to add to my point about the lack of parentage being a thematic device in most shonen manga and anime, I specifically believe that male protagonists growing up without a father is a conscious decision made by the writers in conveying their character arcs.

That's just my two-cents though. In all likeliness I'm probably wrong and just talking out of my ass.

A lot of it has to do with drama. Tension between family members (especially father and son) is the easiest to play off for dramatic effect. It's a lot harder to have conflict between family members while having them make up and grow. That's why in most shonen, fathers and sons either have great relationships, or bad ones. It's hard to evolve that sort of thing in a story that usually involves blowing stuff up or defeating bad guys.

I actually think Vegeta at the beginning of the Cell saga to the end is a much better father than Goku is by far. You can see his relationship with Future Trunks grow as the story goes on, and by the end he becomes a pretty good dad. That's a good example of rolling in a father and son relationship into the plot. Everyone in Dragon Ball is a better parent than Goku. There isn't even a question there.

Kenshin probably would have been a great father. His relationship with Yahiko was a bit of a preview to what he would be like. Just ignore that stupid non-canonical OVA. Just about everyone was out of character in it.

The characters in Digimon and My Hero Academia have good parents, though I would like to see Midoriya's father at least once. We don't know anything at all about him except his quirk.

Here's a potential subject for discussion. ANN, perpetual anime tabloid, made aList of best battle tournaments (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/the-list/2016-09-10/.106246).

Now, there's a glaring omission here, but I'm sure you know what it is. That said, I've become far less enthused with the shonen staple over the years. So much so that I can't remember the most recent series featuring a battle tournament that I've liked. MHA's I liked mainly for the character development, but I found the first half of it pretty boring.

Honestly, for all that people like to harp on Black Clover, they haven't actually had a tournament arc yet. I find that pretty impressive, considering how much of a staple it is.

The Grand Magic Games from Fairy Tail is on the list over the Dark Tournament and they put in the Indigo League over the Kalos League (which despite the fuss over Ash losing is still unquestionably the best tournament in the series by far). The rest are good choices, though. ANN's "The List" column is dependent on the opinions of a sole writer and what they have seen and like, so knowing the opinions of the writer in question, I can disagree but understand her reasoning for why she ordered things the way she did (though seriously, I can't understand why anyone likes the fucking Grand Magic Games. Fairy Tail wins because Sting chickens out because they are "too determined" and doesn't even fight them despite them being worn-out as shit. Fucking bite me, Mashima.)

Tournament arcs as a concept are easy to screw up and make dull when you make them a string of fights with no point to them. I like the ones that either move fast and focus on a select few essential fights or those that have a lot of story and character development for a lot of characters underlying them. I really do like the Fall Classic in FW! and Sports Festival in MHA in that regard because in addition to some good match-ups there was a lot of character development either payed off on long developing character arcs and established new directions for others. You can complain that some characters in MHA didn't get a big fight to their own, but I much preferred Horikoshi selecting a few key characters and focus his time on them specifically, showing only the key fights and moments that affect their stories and development. That was a weakness of the first round of FW!'s Fall Classic, which spent chapters showing off every Polaris chef even though most of them wouldn't make it to the second round and have little influence and relevance in the story.

As for Black Clover, it might have a tournament arc in the future, who knows. I'm not inherently against them conceptually. I just don't want them to waste my time with fights that add nothing to character development and move the story forward and keep the story stuck in the same place for a long period of time.

I stopped taking ANN seriously years ago.

At any rate it's just someone else's list, so I don't have anything inherently against it.

I will say that aside from the obvious choices, I tend to like most Sports manga tournament arcs. The All-Japan Juniors from Baby Steps and the Summer Inter-High from Yowamushi Pedal particularly stand out to me as good tournaments, rather than just a series of matches of varying quality. All of the matches are good, but you also get the sense of elevating stakes and great character development between the matches that really helps make the tournament feel more like an inter-connected story arc.

If I ever get the chance to get back to Flame of Recca, it'll easily show why some people think of it as "dime-store YYH" instead of a series with a great sense of fun and high-spirited energy the manga has. The anime was too overly serious and gives it a tone that makes it appear like it's trying to be YYH, when it has far more influences than just that series. The tournament arc is probably the biggest change, since they make the final fight in the anime the last fight of the series and completely ruin it in the process. I still stand by my opinion that the anime of FoR has done it more harm over here than good.

But that'll be for another time.

Sports anime and manga rarely flub with tournaments, unless the series is already bad. Heck, most sport series usually end with a tournament. I'm not quite sure why they just appear to be so much better at them than battle series are. Is it because battle tournaments are always the same, and rarely offer variety? All the best ones usually do. I guess it's hard to get invested in a one on one fight unless there's a purpose for the characters and the story. Putting that together in a tournament setting is pretty difficult, I'd think.

Since most competitive sports themselves revolve around tournaments, most sports manga inherently have to be based around a tournament for most of their duration, and they'd have to be pretty incompetent to mess up that fundamental structure. Likewise, that's why most sports manga do tournaments better than battle series. Competitive sports are already tournaments, and any mangaka who's done enough research and watched enough games should know how such tournaments are structured and can draw from real life examples as to how certain games and situations might play out.

This: http://youtu.be/DUQfInd0gLA

I've had my issues and disagreements with some of Digibro's opinions in some videos, but on this subject matter I agree with just about every word that he said. This is a great watch.

It reminds me of this what-if scenario I considered where Jojo's was the show Toei made in the late 80s/90s that would be marketed worldwide and would help FUNi flourish, while DBZ was the franchise little-known outside Japan that would suddenly get an anime in 2012. Would the fan perception be shifted as well, with Jojo seen as a tired shonen while Dragon Ball Z's lauded as refreshing from the usual fare?

I've considered the same thing many times. It's so easy to stick a stereotypical label on a known entity that we've been exposed to for decades, but would people really have the same perception if they weren't exposed to it until recently, and through a much more styalistically resonant anime adaptation?

On pacing, I found this list of series and how long they took to adapt the first 10 volumes of the manga:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE4OxwZXYAIIl-0.jpg)

Other series:

Fairy Tail: 35
FMA Brotherhood: 19
Reborn!: 37
Yu-Gi-Oh: 16 (43 with Season 0)
Detective Conan: 70
Gintama: 97
Tokyo Ghoul: 16

MHA will be at 38 episodes by the end of season 2. My guess is that it will tie with YYH by the time we get there.

It says a lot about pacing because I don't consider YYH or Dragon Ball (original) too slow, but I do think FOTNS and Naruto definitely were. Bleach's speed is funny considering how badly paced it became not long later.

I do personally feel that Toei's adaptation of Dragon Ball was on the slow side. Not to say that I didn't enjoy it, but if you go back to the manga you really learn to appreciate how well Toriyama paced his material early on. It would certainly get bloated at parts later on, but the anime always made it seem worse than it really was.

It's definitely an interesting list, but it also doesn't necessarily tell you the pacing of the actual manga since it also varies by the pacing of the adaptation. For instance, JoJo's chapters tend to be fairly light on dialogue and full of action, so in addition to cutting out some early material, the anime was able to blow through hundreds of chapters fairly quick. Hunter X Hunter, on the other hand, has chapters that are so dense that even the non-filler version didn't really manage to blow through the material substantially faster than the original version, saving under 10 episodes-worth of time in adapting the first 10 volumes, which if anything really goes to show how well-paced the original was even with filler in the way.

It was on the slow side, yes. It was 16 volumes in a 100+ episode series. But Toei was a lot smarter at masking it than they were in most of their other ones. It also helps that the filler doesn't take away from the core story, which is a rarity.

I'm not sure if there is a hard and fast rule for adaptions but for shonen the average appears to be around 50 episodes. For better or worse, it looks like 2 chapters an episode is more or less the standard.

Bleach's final arc is finally getting an anime adaptation. (https://twitter.com/WSJ_manga/status/1240185003964694528)

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/v0eHX3n28wvoQ/giphy.gif)

Shaman King, of all possible titles, is getting a new anime next year. (https://twitter.com/SHAMANKING_PR/status/1271276514324017152)

I didn't expect this. Wow.

Quote from: Daikun on June 12, 2020, 01:10:18 PM
Shaman King, of all possible titles, is getting a new anime next year. (https://twitter.com/SHAMANKING_PR/status/1271276514324017152)

I didn't expect this. Wow.

I legit freaked out when I heard about this last week! Considering that the announcement uses the original anime's OP theme, it sounds like Takei's request to bring back the the old voice cast and music was granted. Now, my only concern is how many episodes this will be. Shaman King isn't a dense read, but 35 volumes is a doozy to adapt.  :sweat:

The new Shaman King is debuting on Netflix August 9. (https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2021-06-10/netflix-streams-new-shaman-king-anime-on-august-9/.173792)

Fist of the North Star is getting a new series to celebrate the manga's 40th anniversary. (https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2023-09-12/buronson-tetsuo-hara-fist-of-the-north-star-manga-gets-new-anime/.202260)

(https://cdn.animenewsnetwork.com/thumbnails/max700x700/cms/news.6/202260/hnk_teaservisual.jpg)